--- Log opened Mon Apr 02 00:00:02 2007
01:11 < pxegeek> Hmmm...  I'm thinking the tangents are confusing it.
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01:12 < pxegeek> bye dyloxin!
01:12 < pxegeek> I don't think he likes me....
01:13 < pxegeek> Is there an easy way to delete tangents?  I've just been collapsing them down to a single spot, but I'm guessing they're stacking up in the 'wrong' order. 
01:15 < pxegeek> (You can't see it in the rendered version :)
01:20 < pxegeek> Actually I'm not seeing it in synfig either...
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01:30 < dooglus> no, I wasn't either until I deleted one of the vertices
01:30 < dooglus> I 'delete' tangents by setting them to 0,0 in the param editor
01:31 < pxegeek> Me too, but they still show as lightgreeny yellow instead of orange
01:31 < dooglus> alt-3 toggles tangents on and off
01:31 < dooglus> if that's what you mean?
01:32 < pxegeek> Not quite
01:32 < dooglus> toggles the tangent ducks on and off, I mean
01:32 < pxegeek> yes
01:32 < dooglus> I think tangent ducks always get drawn on top of position ducks if they are both on
01:32 < pxegeek> If I want to now drag a vertex, I can only grab the tangents
01:33 < dooglus> right
01:33 < dooglus> that's what alt-3 is for, I think
01:33 < pxegeek> I have to drag them out of the way, grab the positiong duck, move it, then move the tangents back on top of it.  
01:33 < dooglus> yes
01:33 < pxegeek> At least synfig allows me  to choose which tangent to pick, depending on which side of the circle I click
01:33 < dooglus> or alt-3 them out the way, move it, alt-3 them back
01:34 < dooglus> is that how it decides?
01:34 < pxegeek> Ah - that sounds easier
01:34 < dooglus> I'd been wondering about that
01:34 < pxegeek> yes - it took me some time to figure that one out
01:36 < pxegeek> shame there isn't a third option in there to drag the position duck...., but it's pretty fine control there anyway
01:36 < pxegeek> Which vertex did you delete?  
01:36 < dooglus> how about:
01:36 < dooglus> drag a rectangle around just the vertex, to select the position duck and both tangent ducks
01:37 < dooglus> then move all 3 ducks together
01:37 < dooglus> I deleted the one to the left - it's in the middle of a straight line, so I thought it wasn't needed
01:37 < dooglus> but it seems that it was doing the job of keeping the corner from disappearing :)
01:39 < dooglus> aah, I think it's only letting you pick between the tangents because the tangent lengths aren't quite zero
01:39 < dooglus> the tangents are actually sticking out a little bit to each side of the position duck
01:39 < dooglus> and that's why you're able to select them individually
01:40 < pxegeek> 0.000000pt isn't 0?
01:40 < dooglus> and if you're patient enough (or zoom in enough) you'll be able eventually to hit the position duck itself (it's orange, whereas the tangent ducks are yellow and red)
01:42 < pxegeek> Hmmm... I think we're looking at different vertices.  I'm on 'snap to grid' and 1600% zoom.  They're all piled on top of each other.
01:43 < pxegeek> Alt 3 works well though
01:49 < dooglus> alt 2 toggles position ducks
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01:49 < dooglus> alt 2 toggles position ducks
01:49 < pxe_geek> Sorry - missed what you said in the last 6 minutes
01:49 < dooglus> and alt 1 through alt 6 toggle all (?) 6 kinds of ducks
01:52 < dooglus> http://dooglus.rincevent.net/synfig/logs/2007/%23synfig-2007-04-02.log <-- not much
01:54 < pxe_geek> I saw what you were talking about
01:56 < pxe_geek> then http://pxegeek.home.comcast.net/synfig/sf_crash.PNG
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02:21 < dooglus> I've been playing with a 'mind map' tool I found recently:
02:21 < dooglus> http://dooglus.rincevent.net/synfig/Synfig-FreeMind-MindMap.png
02:21 < dooglus> it seems like quite a good way of collecting information about things
02:22 < dooglus> I may have already seen that crash
02:22 < dooglus> I've not found a way of reliably repeating it though - did you?
02:23 < pxe_geek> :)  I played with that one awhile ago.  Like all good tools, it's as good as the effort you put into it.
02:23 < pxe_geek> You don't what to see what was on my mind ~ ayear ago...
02:24 < pxe_geek> I still see random crashes, usually when rendering the canvas view
02:25 < pxe_geek> Most often when fine tuning vertices - moving them around small distances repeatedly.  It may be that I try to move it before it's finished rendering?
02:26 < dooglus> I saw a crash today from moving a vertex
02:26 < dooglus> the error was complaining that 'dy' was zero
02:26 < dooglus> as in 'delta-y'
02:27 < dooglus> I was wondering if that happens if you move a vertex exactly vertically
02:27 < dooglus> um - horizontally, I mean
02:27 < dooglus> with 0 change in the y axis
02:28 < pxe_geek> Isn't that supposed to happen when you move a vertex with the shift key depressed?
02:29 < dooglus> maybe
02:29 < dooglus> that's not what causes it, anyway...
02:29 < dooglus> I just tried with the snap-to-grid thing enabled, and it was fine
02:29 < pxe_geek> BTW, found a solution for your chipped corner - I think it's working correctly.  It's trying to hit both tangents and the position duck
02:30 < pxe_geek> If you split the tangents, suddenly you get a nice sharp corner, even though the tangents haven't moved :)
02:30 < dooglus> but even if you set all tangents to zero, the corner is still chipped
02:30 < pxe_geek> split the tangents
02:31 < dooglus> right, I saw that too...  a split zero tangent behaves differently to a joined zero tangent...
02:31 < dooglus> that can't be right, can it!
02:31 < pxe_geek> For small values of 0.00000  :)
02:33 < dooglus> here's an example: http://dooglus.rincevent.net/synfig/chipped-corner.sif
02:33 < pxe_geek> Seems to have interesting knock on effects on the next vertex too.  
02:33 < dooglus> all 3 tangents are split, and zero, and one corner is still chipped
02:33 < dooglus> it depends where the 'loop' is, too.
02:35 < pxe_geek> Wasn't there already a bug about this...?  
02:36 < dooglus> I can't see it on the tracker
02:37 < dooglus> oh, I remember...  I never got around to raising a bug report - I just put it here: http://dooglus.rincevent.net/synfig/sharp.html
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02:38 < pxe_geek> Yes, that's the one I was thinking of...
02:38 < pxe_geek> I couldn't see it on tracker either ;)
02:40 < pxe_geek> So the blunt corner isn't necessarily the one where it's looped.  I fix vertex 7 and vertex 8 becomes blunted.  
02:46 < dooglus> if all tangents are zero then the blunt corner is where it's looped
02:46 < dooglus> (did you know you can change where it's looped by right-clicking any vertex and doing 'rotate order'?
02:50 < pxe_geek> Yes, but that doesn't change the vertext numbering, does it?
02:51 < dooglus> yes, it does
02:51 < dooglus> vertex 001 through vertex <n> are a solid line
02:51 < dooglus> the looping is from vertex 001 to the biggest numbered one
02:51 < dooglus> so when you 'rotate order', all the verticies change their number
02:52 < pxe_geek> So rotating the order will rewrite the whole array witihn synfig?  
02:53 < pxe_geek> What does loopyness do?
03:10 < dooglus> I've no idea :)
03:11 < dooglus> ok, I checked the source
03:12 < dooglus> it does absolutely nothing
03:13 < dooglus> in some old code which isn't used any more, it was a way of unlooping an outline
03:14 < dooglus> set the loopiness to <0.5 and it would unloop it
03:14 < dooglus> but that's disabled now
03:15 < dooglus> interesting - you can publish mindmaps as java applets: http://dooglus.rincevent.net/synfig/mindmap.html
03:16 < dooglus> so you can browse my synfig mindmap in any java-enabled web browser
03:20 < pxe_geek> Hey, dooglue, I can expand your mind! (map)
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06:35  * pxe_geek is going to bed
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08:25 < pabs3> dooglus: about SVN r406, can you put a todo item in the code so we don't lose it?
08:35 < pabs3> dooglus: also, whats the deal with r413?
08:36 < pabs3> (also be sure to modify the NEWS/TODO files when you make user-visible changes)
09:50 < pabs3> dooglus: adding a FAQ item about the touchpad thing
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12:41 < dooglus> pabs3: r413 removes some old, dead code
12:41 < dooglus> pabs3: probably from before everything was handled by the state machine
12:42 < pabs3> hmm, ok
12:42 < dooglus> pabs3: old: rotoscope -> new draw
12:42 < dooglus> pabs3: old: rotoscope_bline -> new bline tool
12:42 < pabs3> ahh, ok
12:42 < dooglus> pabs3: old: rotoscope_polygon -> new polygon tool
12:42 < dooglus> etc
12:42 < dooglus> also, there used to be a 'color selector' tool
12:43 < dooglus> whereas now there are separate tools for foreground and background
12:44 < dooglus> pabs3: I saw a thread about synfig in french last night
12:44 < pabs3> yeah?
12:44 < pabs3> iirc there was a french person who wanted to translate it
12:44 < dooglus> http://forum.ubuntu-fr.org/viewtopic.php?pid=828408
12:44 < dooglus> I don't speak french, but words like 'impossible' and 'terrible' can't be good, can they?
12:45 < pabs3> :) indeed
12:48 < dooglus> one of them put up a video here of trying to use synfig without disabling the touchpad first: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2K--udbJ8s#GU5U2spHI_4
12:50 < dooglus> wasn't the translator german?
12:51 < dooglus> google translator, from that french thread: "it is a pity really this software had the air interesting for somebody who bump in drawing-animated."  :)
12:52 < dooglus> "when will have with linux really universal installeurs?
12:52 < dooglus> it would be the foot!"
12:53 < pabs3> yay google
12:53 < pabs3> hmm, I thought there were 2 translators
12:55 < pabs3> sgrr, bad youtube, that video doesn't play for me
12:57  * pabs3 uses mplayer on the cached file instead
13:00 < dooglus> there's the altavista babelfish, too
13:11 < dooglus> my reply in the french thread :)
13:11 < dooglus> http://forum.ubuntu-fr.org/viewtopic.php?pid=832151#p832151
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13:30 < pabs3> dooglus: hmm, the bugmenot account I tried doesn't seem to allow adding comments, can you ask for these three vids to be tagged synfig? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwSZZivjQMo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW-_WqdbqYY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGMmxzZarBw
13:32 < dooglus> pabs3: they're all legal, right?
13:32 < pabs3> thats 3 copies of the werewolf video on youtube
13:32 < dooglus> I don't want to be posting any dodgy porn links for you
13:32 < pabs3> ah, dunno
13:32 < dooglus> oh, I see
13:32 < dooglus> you want me to contact the youtube account owners
13:32 < pabs3> yeah, so they show up in the synfig search as well as voria
13:33 < pabs3> ZuluDaGuerrilla seems to be an ex-voria artist
13:35 < pabs3> woops, I see my comments showed up, I thought it would be immediate
13:37 < dooglus> you underestimate the flakiness of youtube!
13:37 < dooglus> some comments never show up, even though you get the 'your comment has been posted' notification
13:38 < dooglus> other comments can take hours to show up
13:38 < dooglus> and sometimes they appear and disappear at random
13:38 < pabs3> jebus
13:38 < dooglus> I've added the 'todo' you asked for
13:38 < dooglus> what kind of user-visible changes need to go into 'news'?
13:39 < dooglus> is getting the 'save all' button to save all canvases worth mentioning?
13:39 < dooglus> it's really just a bug fix
13:39 < pabs3> ya, spose that comes under 'misc bug fixes'
13:40 < dooglus> I guess what I'm asking is how user-visible does something have to be?  pretty much every change is visible to a knowlegable enough user
13:42 < pabs3> I do think that it is worth adding 'Implemented "save all"'
13:43 < pabs3> but it isn't that important
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14:52 < dooglus> 2 hours ago I signed up for that french ubuntu message board
14:52 < dooglus> 2 hours later I receive my first ever french spam email
14:52 < dooglus> coincidence?
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15:59 < zloc> i would say no coincidence at all...
15:59 < zloc> i think the bots at least watch board postings these days...
15:59 < zloc> i get ones with subjects that interest me re my postings...
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17:22 < dooglus> http://dooglus.rincevent.net/synfig/automake.html <-- nasty hack to make rebuilding synfig go quicker
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18:45 < pabs3> dooglus: just checked, make dist is working
18:48 < dooglus> pabs3: OK
18:49 < pabs3> updating the roadmap with yr suggestions
19:13 < dooglus> I'm thinking we can borrow gaim's build script for windows
19:13 < pabs3> thatd be good, have you experience in using it?
19:13 < dooglus> I used it a while ago and it was very easy - it built both the standalone and bundled .exe installers with little fuss
19:14 < pabs3> cool
19:14 < dooglus> I can't really run windows at the moment though.  I don't know what's up with it, but it's pretty much unusable on this PC
19:16 < dooglus> isn't it very late there?
19:17 < pabs3> 1:20 AM
19:18 < pabs3> a server died, so in the middle of an emergency setup of a new one
19:19 < pabs3> about 60G worth of mailman data
19:21 < pabs3> dooglus: have you had a look at the input devices code?
19:24 < dooglus> I've had a look, yes
19:24 < dooglus> but didn't get anywhere
19:25 < pabs3> thats what you always say, then you pull out a shotgun and blow the bug away!
19:25  * pabs3 needs to make an animation about that
19:25 < dooglus> heh
19:26 < dooglus> I think all (or nearly all) the bugs I've fixed have been entirely within synfig
19:26 < dooglus> rather than its interaction with external libraries
19:26 < dooglus> 1:20AM?
19:26 < dooglus> it's 19:20 here
19:26 < dooglus> so you're only 6 hours ahead.  that's odd.
19:27 < pabs3> had daylight savings for the first time ever (AFAIK) this year
19:27 < pabs3> UTC+8 atm
19:28 < dooglus> ok
19:28 < dooglus> I guess I'm more familiar with East coast Australians :)
19:28 < dooglus> whatever.
19:28  * pabs3 will be one of those soon :)
19:29 < pabs3> by this time next week I'll be in sydney
19:29 < dooglus> you're moving for work?
19:29 < pabs3> yeah
19:29 < dooglus> so that'll be UTC+10?
19:30 < pabs3> yar
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22:23 < dooglus> :(
22:23 < dooglus> my laptop's hard disk just died
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 03 00:00:56 2007