--- Log opened Thu Feb 07 00:00:29 2008
00:09 -!- genete [n=Genete@84.122.48.39.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #synfig
00:21 < genete> hi
00:45 < dooglus> hi
00:45 < dooglus> feeling recharged?
00:45 < genete> hi dooglus
00:46 < genete> yes but not for today... tomorrow I wake up 6:40 :(
00:46 < genete> anyway, something interesting?
00:47 < CIA-40> synfig: dooglus * r1611 /synfig-studio/trunk/src/gtkmm/dockmanager.cpp:
00:47 < CIA-40> synfig: My panels were drifting one or two pixels each time I started studio. This
00:47 < CIA-40> synfig: seems to be window-manager dependent. I've added environment variables to allow
00:47 < CIA-40> synfig: adjusting the drift to stop it. SYNFIG_WINDOW_POSITION_X_OFFSET and
00:47 < CIA-40> synfig: SYNFIG_WINDOW_POSITION_Y_OFFSET. Setting them both to 1 stops the drift for me
00:47 < CIA-40> synfig: in xfwm4.
00:47 < CIA-40> synfig: dooglus * r1612 /synfig-studio/trunk/src/gtkmm/dialogsettings.cpp: Remember the position and size of the color and gradient dialogs even if they're not displayed when studio exits.
00:47 < CIA-40> synfig: dooglus * r1613 /synfig-studio/trunk/src/gtkmm/canvasview.cpp: Set minimum and maximum zoom levels for the timescroller.
00:47 < genete> thanks CIA-40 !
00:48 * genete finds that off-set too
00:48 < dooglus> nothing much there - just easy stuff that had been annoying me
00:49 < genete> dooglus: regarding to zoom
00:49 < dooglus> do your panels stay where you put them? or do they move one or two pixels each time?
00:49 < genete> they move
00:49 < genete> Gnome here
00:49 < dooglus> up and left?
00:50 < dooglus> these 2 fix the moving for me:
00:50 < dooglus> export SYNFIG_WINDOW_POSITION_X_OFFSET=1
00:50 < dooglus> export SYNFIG_WINDOW_POSITION_Y_OFFSET=1
00:50 < genete> regarding to zoom. Do you know that you can zoom in deep and deep with the CTRL mouse wheel or the zoom tool ? It causes a crash or hang for some kind of layers (blurs, gradients...)
00:51 < genete> yes up and left the right bottom corner of the panels windows
00:52 < genete> I think the zoom in witht the zoom tool would be limited
00:52 < genete> I can accidentally make a small click into the canvas and then ... crash!
00:55 < genete> ok there is a limit but it is beyond 1600
00:55 < genete> I don't know how much but it causes hang for some effects
00:59 < genete> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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01:52 < pabs3> thats a pretty nice splash genete
01:53 < factor> what is it url?
01:54 < pabs3> http://www.darthfurby.com/genete/synfig/mysplashscreen.png
01:55 < factor> heh cool sail
01:55 < factor> good idea
02:03 < pabs3> check his comments in the IRC log for the meaning of some stuff
02:04 < factor> where is the log at
02:05 < pabs3> linked from synfig.org/Communication
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04:17 * pixelgeek very envious of genete's sailboat
04:18 < pixelgeek> The only thing that worries me is that it has no-one sailing it!
04:18 < pabs3> hah!
04:19 < pixelgeek> I was staring at it uneasily for several minutes before I realized what was wrong....
04:19 < pabs3> :)
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04:20 < pixelgeek> Was it the aspect of the boat? Should I be able to see the deck from this viewpoint?
04:20 < pixelgeek> Does the boat look too flat? Need more shading?
04:20 < pixelgeek> No! It's the Marie Celeste!
04:21 < pixelgeek> It is beautiful though - the clouds, the sea, the sails - almost photorealistic
04:22 < pabs3> indeed
04:22 < pabs3> I wonder what it would look like at a splash-screen size
06:07 < pixelgeek> dooglus - when you start up synfig from a crash, it gives you the option of reopening your old file from autosave. It then opens a new blank file regardless. Can you only open a new file if there isn't one already open?
06:15 < pabs3> pixelgeek: I'm thinking of reverting the win32 code to use popen instead of messing with pipes/etc, since it works better and has the same amount of security issues. what do you think?
06:16 < pixelgeek> Two thumbs up.
06:17 < pixelgeek> The other thing I was thinking of was having someway to pass your own command line into ffmplay...
06:17 < pixelgeek> I don't know how easy that would be...
06:18 < pixelgeek> then you could generate fls files directly from synfig.
06:18 < pixelgeek> s/ ffmplay/ffmpeg
06:21 < pabs3> fls?
06:23 < pabs3> you mean flv?
06:23 < pixelgeek> yes
06:24 < pixelgeek> time for bed
06:35 < pabs3> nite
06:38 < pixelgeek> gnite
06:43 < pixelgeek> Here's one last one to try at home...
06:44 < pixelgeek> In the file save as dialog, highlight all the text and drag it out of the text box onto the dialog box background
06:45 < pixelgeek> On Windows, the text automatically glides back to the text box then synfig crashes.
06:45 < AkhIL> pixelgeek: you may take a look how kdenlive uses ffmpeg
06:45 < pixelgeek> how so?
06:46 < AkhIL> you may pass any parameters to libavc
06:48 < pixelgeek> Yes - that's what I'm looking for. Right now, Studio only allows you to create mpegs with it, and uses the render resolutions, fps and other default parameters. There's no way to changes the default settings except by recompiling.
06:49 * pixelgeek really off to bed now
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08:09 < factor> ok how does one render to png
08:09 < factor> I know I did this before
08:09 < factor> but I no longer see tis option
08:10 < factor> if I have the background covered I cant do a right click and render
08:11 < factor> that topion is not available
08:11 < factor> option even^
08:11 < pabs3> file->render
08:11 < factor> I dont have that option
08:12 < factor> if I enable the background
08:12 < factor> if I uncheck the background i can then right click file render
08:12 < factor> but will give me layer options if I have the background enabled
08:12 < factor> and I loose any ability to render
08:13 < factor> ahh the ">" icon in the top corner
08:13 < factor> ok first time I used that button
08:14 < pabs3> first??!
08:14 < factor> yup
08:14 < pabs3> wow
08:14 < factor> normaly I just used the right click on the drawing window
08:14 < pabs3> how did you get to the file menu before?
08:14 < factor> but covered up everything this time
08:15 < factor> ^ two lines up
08:18 < pabs3> ah
08:18 < factor> http://www.userspace.org/images_orig/synnie7.png
08:18 < factor> getting closer , still a ways to go
08:19 < pabs3> :) cool
08:19 < factor> http://www.userspace.org/images_orig/synfig-feb-challenge.png
08:19 < factor> first one
08:23 < factor> ok off to sleep
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09:34 < AkhIL> hey. my synfig-studio building falls with error autorevision.h can't find a file
09:35 < pabs3> did autorevision.sh not run?
09:36 < AkhIL> aha... I should reconfigure. Right?
09:36 < pabs3> yeah
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10:47 < CIA-40> synfig: dooglus * r1614 /synfig-studio/trunk/src/gtkmm/ (autorecover.h autorecover.cpp): Count the number of files we were able to successfully recover.
10:47 < CIA-40> synfig: dooglus * r1615 /synfig-studio/trunk/src/gtkmm/app.cpp: Don't automatically create a new document if we successfully recover any old documents.
10:47 < CIA-40> synfig: dooglus * r1616 /synfig-studio/trunk/src/gtkmm/app.cpp:
10:47 < CIA-40> synfig: Attempting to open a file that is already open should just succeed quietly. It
10:47 < CIA-40> synfig: used to pop up an error dialog and get the user to click 'OK'. This was
10:47 < CIA-40> synfig: particularly annoying when the file was specified on the command line that
10:47 < CIA-40> synfig: started studio, and was only already open because it had just been recovered
10:47 < CIA-40> synfig: from a previous crash.
10:48 < dooglus> hi fishb
10:48 < fishb> hello dooglus
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11:22 < pabs3> pixelgeek: here is a patch to synfig to revert to popen on win32: http://bonedaddy.net/pabs3/files/tmp/synfig-win32-popen.patch
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12:47 < CIA-40> synfig: dooglus * r1617 /synfig-core/trunk/src/synfig/time.cpp: My recent fix for trailing spaces left out spaces when the fps is zero.
12:47 < CIA-40> synfig: dooglus * r1618 /synfig-studio/trunk/src/gtkmm/ (dialog_setup.h dialog_setup.cpp): Add a setting in the gui for the auto-backup interval.
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12:58 < pabs3> wb fishb
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15:22 -!- genete [n=Genete@84.122.37.196.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #synfig
15:22 < genete> hi
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15:25 < dooglus> hi
15:26 < genete> hi
15:26 < dooglus> genete: what do you think should happen with canvases?
15:26 < dooglus> if I load the same .sif into two different documents
15:26 < genete> canvases waypoints or what?
15:26 < genete> ah
15:27 < genete> it would create a new reference on each document
15:27 < dooglus> like:
15:28 < genete> no
15:28 < dooglus> a reference to the filename?
15:28 < genete> I mean:
15:28 < genete> current behavior BEFORE export any canvas is fine
15:28 < genete> it points to the file itself
15:28 < dooglus> yes
15:29 < genete> if the file is changed then the imported one is changed too. That's great!
15:29 < genete> BUT
15:29 < dooglus> exporting a canvas seems to actually copy the file
15:29 < genete> if I EXPORT a canvas it would forget its original file and make a copy of it
15:30 < genete> today it is not true
15:30 < genete> beacuse when you export the canvas param of an imported file
15:30 < genete> and import it again in a second file it exports it as the name of the first file, and I don't want it!!
15:31 < genete> I want just to import it and maybe I want to export it with the same name or other or simply never export the canvas param
15:31 < dooglus> ok
15:31 < genete> does it maake sense?
15:31 < dooglus> is there any good reason that "export" should make a copy?
15:32 < genete> don't understand properly "make a copy"
15:32 < dooglus> if you don't export, the new sif just has the filename of the imported sif
15:32 < genete> yes
15:32 < dooglus> and any changes you make to the imported sif affect everything that imported it
15:33 < genete> yes, it is like if you were really working with the original
15:33 < dooglus> but if you export the canvas then save the new sif file, you'll see a whole copy in there - the file gets bigger
15:33 < genete> yes it makes sense
15:33 < genete> it is bigger but i don't want to be linked to the original file anymore
15:34 < genete> imagine that the original sif file is deleted
15:34 < genete> or I move my file to other place and the original path is not found
15:34 < dooglus> I make a new file, import pirates.sifz, and save my new file - the file is 443 bytes:
15:34 < dooglus> -rw-r--r-- 1 chris chris 443 Feb 7 15:34 import-test.sifz
15:34 < genete> send the file to me and I cannot see the pirated one
15:35 < genete> you send me a link to your computer that I cannot reach
15:35 < dooglus> I export the imported canvas and save again - the file is very large:
15:35 < dooglus> -rw-r--r-- 1 chris chris 695847 Feb 7 15:34 import-test-2.sifz
15:35 < dooglus> the 2nd file has a copy of the imported sif inside it. the 1st file didn't
15:35 < dooglus> that's what I meant by "make a copy"
15:35 < genete> it is fine. It is what it is supossed to do
15:35 < genete> ok
15:36 < dooglus> I don't know what it's supposed to do
15:36 < genete> so if you export the canvas (of an imported file of course not an inline one) it should make a copy of the file into yours
15:36 < genete> well I'm taking about the current behavior
15:36 < genete> talking*
15:37 < dooglus> maybe I want to use the voria logo in an animation. I need to export it to switch between it and a different canvas, but I don't want a copy of it
15:37 < genete> good point
15:37 < dooglus> I want to refer to the file, so that my animation automatically uses the new logo once we decide to switch to a sailboat :)
15:38 < genete> so you're suggesting to have to commands: "import" and "insert reference"
15:38 < genete> two*
15:38 < genete> right?
15:38 < dooglus> yes
15:38 < dooglus> I can see that it's useful sometimes to copy instead of reference
15:39 < dooglus> but that's no related to whether the canvas is exported or not, is it?
15:39 < genete> in fact the convert type "reference" is a little odd for canvases
15:39 < dooglus> s/no/not
15:40 < genete> so, you're suggesting to have "import reference" and "import copy" commands?
15:40 < genete> or "export as reference" ?
15:41 < dooglus> maybe just have import do what it does now - it imports a reference only
15:41 < dooglus> but have an option on the canvas to "copy into this document"
15:41 < dooglus> if it's currently a reference
15:42 < genete> but with that do you solve the problem you mentioned? the switch canvases
15:42 < dooglus> well, I also stop 'export' from copying
15:42 < dooglus> 'export' then just moves the reference to the top level
15:43 < dooglus> or moves the copy to the top level - whatever it is
15:43 < genete> what would happen with inline canvases wiith this parameter?
15:43 < dooglus> each sif file is in 2 parts: (1) the section and (2) the layer tree
15:44 < dooglus> the is all the exported values and canvases, the layer tree is everything else - layers and inline canvases
15:45 < genete> thery're really "inside" the current file so the "copy into this document" option would be strange...
15:46 < dooglus> the "copy" option only appears for canvases which are references to external files
15:46 < genete> ok
15:47 < dooglus> so there are 4 types of canvas? 1a: exported reference; 1b: exported copy; 2a: non-exported reference; 2b: inline canvas
15:47 < genete> I offer to make aas many test you need to validate this new behavior... ;)
15:47 < CIA-40> synfig: dooglus * r1619 /synfig-studio/trunk/src/gtkmm/autorecover.cpp: Make the auto-backup process quieter. We don't need to hear about every backup that's done.
15:47 < dooglus> it's a 2x2 grid
15:47 < genete> and exported from inline canvas
15:48 < dooglus> I think that's the same as 1b
15:48 < genete> but it is not copy it was really inside jet
15:48 < dooglus> it's exported, and it's in the .sif file - we don't need to know whether it came from a file or not - it's in our file now, and is exported
15:48 < genete> yet*
15:48 < genete> ok
15:49 < dooglus> i see what you mean. the word 'copy' is wrong, because it's not a copy of anything
15:49 < dooglus> but it's not a reference either
15:49 < genete> it is just exported
15:50 < genete> but hey! export a canvas implies not be able to unexport... why?
15:50 < genete> valuenodes can be unexported, why canvases cannot?
15:51 < dooglus> maybe it's just that the canvas panel doesn't work well
15:51 < dooglus> like meta and groups - it's either unfinished or bitrotted
15:51 < dooglus> or maybe it's something else, I don't know
15:52 < dooglus> what happens when you unexport a valuenode that has been connect to several parameters? do the parameters stay linked?
15:52 < genete> yes they get linked together but with not exported name
15:53 < genete> I use it several time
15:53 < dooglus> so what would you expect with canvases?
15:53 < genete> when want to link two valuenodes that have not visible ducks
15:53 < dooglus> you export a canvas, use it in 2 different pastecanvases, then unexport it
15:53 < genete> can I connect two canvases now? I think I cannot
15:54 < genete> it is not possible in almost all the situations unless the canvases are exactly the same
15:54 < genete> but I would like to unexport a canvas
15:54 < genete> for some reason
15:54 < dooglus> and what would it do?
15:54 < dooglus> just delete it?
15:54 < genete> depends on what was the origin
15:54 < dooglus> I see .sif files with old unused exported canvases, and no way of deleting them
15:55 < genete> if it is a exported canvas from a inline canvas just unexport it
15:55 < genete> if it is form a reference file just rename i as its file name
15:55 < genete> if it is a copy file do the same
15:56 < genete> the same as the undo thing does
15:56 < dooglus> undo puts it back as an inline canvas
15:56 < dooglus> but that's because it knows where it came from
15:56 < dooglus> it's possible that the pastecanvas we exported it from no longer exists when we unexport it
15:57 < genete> and if it come from a external file, what does undo do?
15:57 < genete> not if it is a referenced canvas
15:57 < genete> yes if it is a vopy one
15:57 < genete> copy
15:57 < Zelgadis> Hey, just noticed: changing Canvas param not placing waypoints. is it ok?
15:58 < dooglus> Zelgadis: it places them, but you don't get to see them
15:58 < genete> it is not ok for me. I asked you about that
15:58 < genete> oopd
15:58 < dooglus> the canvas parameter only shows the waypoints of the layers it contains at the moment
15:58 < genete> sorry Zelgadis I though you were dooglus
15:58 < Zelgadis> dooglus: Yeah, I mean that
15:59 < Zelgadis> genete: don't mind :)
15:59 < genete> :)
15:59 < Zelgadis> genete: we're sosimilar :-D *JOKINGLY*
15:59 < dooglus> Zelgadis: it's something that needs looking at, yes. but the waypoints are placed, just not displayed
15:59 < Zelgadis> dooglus: Yes, I incorrectly formulated the problem
16:00 * genete sees the nick with the same color...
16:01 < dooglus> looking at the .sif file, I see canvas waypoints:
16:01 < dooglus>
16:01 < dooglus>
16:01 < dooglus>
16:01 < dooglus>
16:01 < dooglus>
16:01 < dooglus>
16:01 < dooglus>
16:01 < genete> Zelgadis: cool!, so you have glasses and long hair?? ;)
16:02 < Zelgadis> genete: Glasses - yes, but hairs not so long anymore
16:03 < Zelgadis> dooglus: the cnavas IS animated, changes are visible, but waypoints are not
16:03 < Zelgadis> I have a suggestion about imported canvases
16:03 < dooglus> Zelgadis: yes, I guess that will be fixed at some point
16:03 < dooglus> go on?
16:04 < genete> we should make a virtual meeting... I would like to put faces to the names
16:05 < genete> go on, but where are you going to place the waypoints
16:05 < genete> remember that now it shows the child layers ones
16:05 < dooglus> genete: I guess a checkbox to switch between canvas and child waypoints
16:06 < Zelgadis> Why not to make EVERY external imported canvas listed as exported
16:06 < Zelgadis> ?
16:06 < genete> I think I suggested you to use the child dialog to display the children layers waypoints and let the params dialog for the param waypoints
16:06 < Zelgadis> With the name like: /home/zelgadis/sifs/file.sif
16:07 < Zelgadis> I not speaking about waypoints
16:07 < genete> oh
16:07 < dooglus> genete: that's ok for exported canvases, but what about for normal encap layers?
16:07 < genete> I forgot that it must be exported
16:07 < genete> yes
16:07 < genete> you're right
16:07 < genete> so a checkbox can be valid
16:07 < genete> and doesn't change current behavior
16:08 < genete> what about other channel
16:08 < genete> to see both at the same time?
16:08 < dooglus> Zelgadis: that's a possibility - basically just export all .sif files when they are imported
16:08 < Zelgadis> yes
16:09 < genete> exported as references initially
16:09 < dooglus> Zelgadis: but what about the copy vs. reference issue? should changes to the original file affect our composition after importing?
16:09 < genete> and let the user make a "copy" or not
16:09 < dooglus> Zelgadis: as I see it both are useful, copying or not copying
16:09 < Zelgadis> And, as you mentioned, have two commands: "import reference" and "import copy"
16:10 < dooglus> also, being able to convert from reference to copy later would be useful
16:10 < Zelgadis> genete: yes, exported as references
16:11 < dooglus> 'import' and 'export' sound like they're related concepts. they're not. :(
16:11 * genete 's mind is being exported to a converted reference. Now he looks like an alien... :)
16:11 < Zelgadis> We can use blender's terminology: Append and link
16:12 < Zelgadis> Or rename "export" to something less confusing
16:12 < dooglus> what would those 2 words translate to in synfig speak?
16:12 < Zelgadis> Append = "import copy"
16:12 < Zelgadis> link = "import reference"
16:12 < dooglus> ok
16:13 < dooglus> what does 'export' do in synfig? there must be a better word for it
16:13 < dooglus> and why is the chilren panel called children? what are they children of? everything's a child of something, even inline stuff
16:13 < Zelgadis> Change "export" word is hard... This word mentioned too many times in wiki :)))
16:14 < dooglus> the wiki is quite good at searching for words
16:14 < Zelgadis> Poor pabs3 :)
16:14 < dooglus> why?
16:15 < Zelgadis> Just a joke. I thought he's maintaining a wiki
16:16 < Zelgadis> So what about making imported referenced canvas appeared as exported?
16:16 < dooglus> ok, but anyone can edit it. I don't think it would be too hard to script simple replacements
16:16 < dooglus> one complaint would be that it unneccesarily crowds the children panel
16:16 < Zelgadis> This is very usefull when switching
16:16 < Zelgadis> hmmm....
16:17 < dooglus> Akhil's mouse is lots of imported bitmaps - but could just as well be lots of imported .sif files
16:17 < dooglus> each part has its own pastecanvas, and never moves to a different one.
16:17 < dooglus> you wouldn't want to see the complete list of mouse parts in the canvas menu
16:17 < genete> so why it is needed to export a canvas?
16:18 < dooglus> genete: you export it to make it appear in the global canvas list
16:18 < Zelgadis> Because it is logically for me
16:18 < dooglus> genete: like you export a value to make it appear in the children panel
16:18 < genete> yes but for what?
16:18 < dooglus> genete: for switching between canvases in a pastecanvas's canvas parameter
16:18 < genete> valuenodes can be connected
16:19 < genete> ok so switching can only be done if they're exported
16:19 < dooglus> canvases can be set into canvas parameters
16:19 < dooglus> yes
16:19 < Zelgadis> You export inline canvas if you want: a) use it many times; b) edit it separately
16:19 < genete> but what about the "Other..." option?
16:19 < genete> what does it means?
16:19 < dooglus> genete: I think it's for saying "use the 'glow' canvas from the logo.sifz file"
16:19 < genete> If i can only choose from the exported ones... why does it let me choose "other.."?
16:20 -!- AkhIL [n=AkhIL@90.188.202.109] has joined #synfig
16:20 < genete> I've tried ti but never have make work
16:20 < dooglus> genete: I've not really tried it
16:20 < dooglus> hi AkhIL
16:20 < genete> I don't know what to write
16:21 < AkhIL> dooglus: greetings immortal
16:21 < Zelgadis> You export inline canvas if you want: a) use it many times; b) edit it separately. The same is true for the imported files. For me exported canvases and imported external sif files are the same things.
16:21 < genete> becasue it is very confising that the options from the drop doewn menu are the file description if ther're from imported files or the exported name if it comes from inline ones
16:22 < Zelgadis> genete: maybe add a possibility to rename them ;)
16:22 < Zelgadis> Eye (/home/zelgadis/eye.sif)
16:24 < Zelgadis> - The path goes in the brackets
16:24 < Zelgadis> if canvas renamed
16:25 < dooglus> the canvas properties lets you rename the id I think?
16:26 < Zelgadis> In other words, exported canvas is a link to some canvas data in CURRENT file. Or link to EXTERNAL file (which is also canvas).
16:27 < Zelgadis> dooglus: no way
16:28 < Zelgadis> dooglus: changing canvas name in Edit-> Properties dialog not changing the exported name
16:28 < dooglus> not the name, change the id
16:28 < Zelgadis> dooglus: but maybe it could?
16:28 < Zelgadis> id?
16:29 < Zelgadis> dooglus: oh, yes, I meant "ID" field
16:29 < Zelgadis> dooglus: not work
16:29 < dooglus> id: http://dooglus.rincevent.net/random/id.png
16:29 < dooglus> ok
16:29 < dooglus> I think maybe it works, but the gui doesn't update. what if you save & revert?
16:29 < Zelgadis> dooglus: i try now
16:30 < genete> dooglus: I don't have the ID entry :(
16:30 < Zelgadis> dooglus: You right!
16:30 < genete> and I'm up to date!
16:30 < Zelgadis> genete: go to Edit-> Properties
16:30 < dooglus> genete: you need to open the subcanvas in its own window and edit the properties there
16:30 < dooglus> none of this is changed at all recently I don't think
16:31 < genete> cool!
16:31 < Zelgadis> dooglus: If we importing external sif file, maybe it must use it's ID as export name?
16:31 < dooglus> but sif files don't have IDs?
16:32 < Zelgadis> dooglus: they could
16:32 < genete> he he
16:32 < Zelgadis> ;)
16:32 < dooglus> only exported things have IDs?
16:32 < Zelgadis> dooglus: yes
16:32 < genete> you cannot give an empty name to the ID. It produces a crash
16:33 < Zelgadis> dooglus: Maybe merge two fields "Name" and "ID"?
16:33 < Zelgadis> They have the same meaning it seems
16:33 < genete> if save and revert it crash if the is empty
16:33 < genete> if the ID is empty
16:33 < Zelgadis> We have a lot of bugreports today :)
16:34 < dooglus> genete: so now you can't load it to fix it?
16:34 < genete> nop
16:34 < genete> core dumped
16:35 < dooglus> cool
16:35 < genete> try it
16:35 < genete> nc ....
16:36 -!- pabs3 [i=pabs@d122-105-74-150.per9.wa.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["Don't rest until all the world is paved in moss and greenery."]
16:36 < dooglus> I'll be back in a bit
16:37 < dooglus> talk amongst yourselves, please ;)
16:37 < genete> I'll be out in a bit
16:54 < genete> out
16:54 < Zelgadis> submitted a bug about canvas switch waypoints
16:56 < genete> bye
16:56 -!- genete [n=Genete@84.122.37.196.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit ["Abandonando"]
16:59 -!- haramanai [n=lkj@athedsl-244597.home.otenet.gr] has joined #synfig
17:00 < haramanai> hi
17:00 < Zelgadis> ??
17:00 < Zelgadis> hi
17:01 < haramanai> Please help. I will try to explain the problem.
17:01 < Zelgadis> And I try to help :)
17:03 < haramanai> I have 2 BLines And I have the one node from each linked. I wand to rotate using the ratate layer but when I do this the linked nodes does not have the same position
17:04 < haramanai> My english are not good sorry
17:05 < Zelgadis> You rotating only one layer?
17:06 < haramanai> it looks like this :
17:06 < haramanai> bline1
17:06 < haramanai> rotate
17:06 < haramanai> bline2
17:07 < Zelgadis> And you have two nodes ducks from each layer
17:08 < haramanai> yes
17:10 < Zelgadis> I please wait I try
17:10 < timonator> hi zel
17:10 < timonator> you made me watch slayers all over again
17:10 < Zelgadis> hi, timonator!
17:11 < Zelgadis> timonator: Wow! I recognized! :)
17:11 < timonator> :)
17:15 < Zelgadis> haramanai: It's kinda tricky. I think you must use different convert types
17:16 < Zelgadis> I'll try to investigate this, but don't know if I could solve this
17:18 < haramanai> Looks like a logic bag to me.
17:18 < Zelgadis> No, this is not a bug
17:19 < Zelgadis> The ducks have are relative to the offset of a layer
17:19 < Zelgadis> The ducks have coordinates are relative to the offset of a layer
17:20 < haramanai> But the link wasn't supposed to keep the nodes together?
17:20 < Zelgadis> When you linking ducks, you linking not their global coordinates, but their relative coordinates
17:21 < Zelgadis> I.e.: They both have relative X coordinates equal to 5
17:21 < Zelgadis> and Y equal to 4
17:21 < Zelgadis> (just examle)
17:21 < Zelgadis> (just example)
17:22 < haramanai> Yes I know what you mean
17:23 < haramanai> But this thing almost kills the character animation.
17:23 < haramanai> I was planing to use the rotate layer like bones
17:25 < Zelgadis> Yes, I think that "Convert to global" convert type will be usefull thing, but it isn't implemented for now. :(
17:26 < Zelgadis> But it seems there is workaround with convert types
17:26 < Zelgadis> I trying to figure it out - I need it too :)
17:26 < haramanai> I realy don't know what is convert types...sorry
17:27 < Zelgadis> If I find I'll let you know!
17:27 < haramanai> The only work around that I found is to link the center of the rotation layer to the conected ducks
17:28 < Zelgadis> You can read http://synfig.org/Following_a_BLine and http://synfig.org/Parabolic_Shot (about converts)
17:28 < haramanai> Ok I will do. Thanks.
17:45 < Zelgadis> haramanai: Are you here?
17:48 < Zelgadis> haramanai: I solved problem. And have an example file for you
17:48 < haramanai> hes
17:49 < haramanai> yes
17:49 < haramanai> Give it to me!
17:50 < Zelgadis> which version do you use?
17:50 < haramanai> 61.07
17:51 < Zelgadis> Oh, I'm using SVN. Wait a minute - I must recreate file for your version
17:53 < Zelgadis> Or better maybe I just tell you what to do step-by-step?
17:53 < AkhIL> Zelgadis: give this file to me
17:54 < haramanai> Yes thats better
17:54 < Zelgadis> AkhIL: ok
17:54 < Zelgadis> haramanai: ok
17:55 < Zelgadis> haramanai: right-click Amount param of Rotate layer
17:56 < Zelgadis> AkhIL: http://zelgadis.profusehost.net/files/rotate_link.sifz
17:56 < Zelgadis> haramanai: select "Export"
17:57 < Zelgadis> haramanai: enter the name for the value you export: "a_delta" (you may use another, but I used this)
17:59 < haramanai> and then?
17:59 < Zelgadis> Now select the upper BLine layer (over Rotate layer) and find in Vertices list (on a Params panel) Vertex you wish to link
18:00 < Zelgadis> (Clicking on the vertex mark selected Duck with red square on the workarea)
18:00 < Zelgadis> found?
18:01 < Zelgadis> Unfold Vertex, and find Vertex param
18:01 < haramanai> Found
18:02 < Zelgadis> (It has a two values - x and y coordinates)
18:04 < Zelgadis> Right-click on this Vertex param and select Convert -> Radial Composite
18:04 < Zelgadis> Then two sub-params will appear - "Radius" and "Theta"
18:07 < Zelgadis> At this point you will have your screen looking like this: http://zelgadis.profusehost.net/files/s01.png
18:07 < Zelgadis> got it?
18:09 < haramanai> yes
18:09 < Zelgadis> (notice, I moved the child tab to the right for my comfort )
18:10 < Zelgadis> Ok, now right-click and export Radius parameter as "r"
18:10 < Zelgadis> and also export "Theta" as "a"
18:11 < Zelgadis> Now we done with first BLine
18:11 < dooglus> I should add a 'save in 0.61.07 format' option in svn - it's not good that you can't share your file with older versions
18:12 < Zelgadis> Select second BLine (under Rotate layer)
18:12 < Zelgadis> ^ that would be nice
18:14 < Zelgadis> Find vertex in the vertices list, which you wish to connect to vertex in our upper Bline
18:14 < dooglus> Zelgadis: but your file does load fine in 0.61.06 anyway...
18:15 < dooglus> ha, I'm wrong... I already had svn version running - 0.61.06 just told the svn version to load it...
18:16 < Zelgadis> Unfold it, right click on a Vertex param and also select Convert -> Radial Composite
18:17 < Zelgadis> Now position of our second vertex is determined not by X and Y coordinates, but by distance from center (Radius) and angle (Theta)
18:18 < Zelgadis> Radius is the same as of first vertex, so we connect it with exported "r" value
18:18 < Zelgadis> To do so:
18:19 < Zelgadis> just select "r" value on the Children panel (in the ValueBase Nodes list)
18:20 < Zelgadis> Then right click Radius parameter on the Param layer and select "Connect"
18:21 < Zelgadis> You will get something like this: http://zelgadis.profusehost.net/files/s02.png
18:22 < Zelgadis> got it?
18:23 < haramanai> yes
18:23 < Zelgadis> But for angle ("Theta") we must have angle of an linked Vertex MINUS angle of rotation (which we previously exported as a_delta)
18:23 < Zelgadis> So, right-click on Theta param, select Convert -> Substract
18:24 < Zelgadis> You'll get three additional sub-parameters - "LHS", "RHS", "Scalar"
18:25 < Zelgadis> In child panel select "a", then right-click on LHS and select "Connect"
18:26 < Zelgadis> (I meant children panel)
18:26 < Zelgadis> Then in children panel select "a_delta", then right-click on RHS param and select "Connect" too
18:29 < Zelgadis> Well, it must work noww
18:31 < haramanai> it's not working I must check it over again. I understand the basic idea but I have to refresh my maths a litle bit.
18:32 < haramanai> By the way I copy paste the coversation cause I am out of time I must go. Thanks.
18:32 < Zelgadis> bye
18:33 < Zelgadis> Oh!
18:33 < Zelgadis> I found!
18:34 < Zelgadis> This won't work if an origin of your Rotate layer is not (0,0)!
18:34 < haramanai> bye and thanks again. I will report my progress. I am really impreesed with synfig write now. I didn't expected to be so deep. Bye.
18:34 < Zelgadis> Glad to hear that
18:35 -!- haramanai [n=lkj@athedsl-244597.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
18:35 < Zelgadis> I think i must copy-paste this tutorial to wiki ;)
18:43 < dooglus> Zelgadis: are the two points supposed to be linked in your example?
18:43 < Zelgadis> yes
18:46 < dooglus> Zelgadis: I move the moveable one and the other moves, but to a different place
18:46 < dooglus> I'll try following your steps here
18:46 < Zelgadis> moveable? What do you mean?
18:46 < Zelgadis> ??!
18:47 < Zelgadis> Ah!
18:47 < Zelgadis> This only work if an origin of your Rotate layer is (0,0)!
18:47 < Zelgadis> If it isn't - then additional transformations needed
18:47 < dooglus> vertex 4 of draft064 is moveable
18:48 < dooglus> vertex 3 of draft065 isn't ("direct manipulation not yet supported")
18:48 < dooglus> those two should be linked? but I move v4/064 and v3/065 goes somewhere else
18:49 < Zelgadis> It's strange
18:49 < dooglus> I'll show a picture
18:49 < Zelgadis> Is origin of rotate layer is 0,0?
18:49 < dooglus> http://dooglus.rincevent.net/random/rotate-link.png
18:49 < dooglus> it's your example - so yes
18:50 < Zelgadis> Try to close and reopen file
18:51 < Zelgadis> I see "value_desc_set Failed" aerror at the bottom of your screenshot
18:51 -!- xerakko [n=Miguel@debian/developer/xerakko] has joined #synfig
18:51 < dooglus> it's from trying to move v3-065
18:51 < Zelgadis> I using SVN 1607
18:53 < Zelgadis> Maybe I send wrong version? Try to redownload file
18:53 < dooglus> ok, load your example, and set the vertex of vertex4 of draft064 to -40,0
18:54 < dooglus> that one's ok
18:54 < Zelgadis> redownloaded - OK?
18:55 < dooglus> but in the redownloaded version, the rotation origin isn't 0
18:56 < Zelgadis> Hmm, it's strange - it works not as I expected...
18:56 < Zelgadis> It works in opposite way...
18:57 < Zelgadis> Oh, figures! I moved wrong duck :)
18:57 < Zelgadis> dooglus: set it to (0,0)
19:00 < Zelgadis> Works?
19:01 < Zelgadis> Hight all
19:02 < dooglus> I just followed your steps
19:02 < dooglus> and they work fine
19:03 < Zelgadis> but _if_ origins of _all_ layers are (0,0)
19:03 < dooglus> I guess it wouldn't be much more work to take the offsets into account too
19:03 < Zelgadis> Yeah, the principle is reflected
19:04 < dooglus> how should the gui be for saving in old formats?
19:04 < Zelgadis> BTW, maybe it makes sense to make automatical convert for such tasks?
19:04 < Zelgadis> I mean converting between transformations
19:05 < Zelgadis> GUI for saving: File Type in Save dialogue
19:05 < dooglus> yeah, ok
19:07 < Zelgadis> About convert: something like "2Global" convert - converts point relatve coordinates to coordinates on screen. Is it possible?
19:09 < dooglus> I don't think so
19:09 -!- Zelgadis [n=zelgadis@87.103.170.70] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
19:09 < dooglus> because it depends which layer is using the value
19:09 < dooglus> the same value can be used in 2 different layers, see?
20:00 -!- TMM [n=hp@ip565b35da.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #synfig
20:47 -!- Yoyobuae [n=quete@201.224.135.156] has joined #synfig
20:49 < Yoyobuae> i was reading about the problems with rotate layer and linked nodes
20:51 < Yoyobuae> if you take any bline, you can apply a transformation to its vectors and obtain a new transformed bline
20:52 < Yoyobuae> my 3Daxis.sif was a perfect example of this. the same applies in 2D
20:52 < Yoyobuae> rotating a bline can be done by rotating the vectors defining it
20:53 < Yoyobuae> but rotate layer rotates an bitmapped version of the bline, which breaks the relation between the vectors defining a bline and it's actual look
20:57 < Yoyobuae> mixing bitmapped operations with vector based operation will always be problematic
20:57 < dooglus> I don't understand - what relation?
20:57 < Yoyobuae> for example: Vertex1 of a bline sets the starting point of a bline
20:59 < Yoyobuae> but if you apply a rotate layer on top, no matter what the rotation parameter is, the vector stays the same
20:59 < Yoyobuae> the duck's code is smart thought, and shows the right position for the vertexes/tangents
21:00 < Yoyobuae> but the actual values in the params panel are wrong
21:01 < Yoyobuae> vertex1(100, 100) of bline1 is not the same as vertex1(100, 100) of bline2, if bline1 is affected by a rotate, but bline2 is not
21:02 < dooglus> right
21:02 < dooglus> the vertex values are relative to the offset, in layer coordinates
21:02 < dooglus> it's the same as if you put a scale layer over the bline
21:02 < dooglus> the bline would change size, but the vertex would stay at 100,100
21:02 < Yoyobuae> or a distort
21:03 < Yoyobuae> or any other bitmapped transform
21:03 < dooglus> every layer produces bitmapped output
21:04 < dooglus> all composition is bitmapped
21:05 < Yoyobuae> if you put a convenient convert combination on each vertex, it can rotate them. and all the layers stay on the same coordinate system
21:05 < Yoyobuae> but the average user might not understand that xD
21:06 < Yoyobuae> here's the problem: how to apply the same operation to all the vertexes/tangents of a set of layers?
21:07 < Yoyobuae> solution: vertexes are on a list, iterate over that list, applying the operation
21:08 < Yoyobuae> that's why im interested in extending the functionality of lists =)
21:09 < dooglus> ok, that makes sense
21:09 < Yoyobuae> a template could then be made to rotate lists of vertexes, the user simply applies it where it's needed =D
21:09 < dooglus> did you notice that if you try to export a blinepoint, the vertex gets exported instead?
21:10 < Yoyobuae> yeah xD
21:10 < dooglus> that can't be right can it?
21:10 < dooglus> bbiab
21:12 < Yoyobuae> yeah, it forces you to link bline's parameters one by one
21:13 < Yoyobuae> you can always expand the bline and export the vertex itself if you want to. blinepoint's should be exportable
21:15 < Yoyobuae> connecting a vector into a blinepoint also connects its vertex instead
21:48 -!- genete [n=Genete@84.122.45.242.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #synfig
22:04 < genete> hi
22:04 < genete> I have some idealistic ideas about sound implementation in synfig
22:08 < genete> 1) Synfig studio can have several soundtracks.
22:09 < genete> 2) Each soundtrack is a layer. So a new layer type is needed
22:09 < genete> the sound scope is the canvas
22:09 < genete> outside the canvas the sound is mure
22:10 < genete> 3) Sound layer parameters can be related to sound manipulation: Sound file, offset time, amplitude, tone, etc.
22:11 < genete> 4) Sound layers are affected only by TIme loop layer, and time offset from the canvas parameter.
22:11 < genete> If the sound layer has a Time loop over it is is affected by, if the time loop is below it is not affected.
22:12 < genete> the graph dialog can be used to draw the sound wave.
22:13 < genete> the parameter "sound file" cannot be exported. It must be a reference.
22:13 < genete> 5) Duplicate layer can also affect to Sound layers. You can produce interesting effect
22:14 < genete> s/mure/muted
22:14 < genete> what do you think?
22:14 < genete> I'll write a post in the forum with this topic
22:23 < genete> Here is the topic : http://synfig.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=188#188
22:26 < rore> heh, that's the first time I see the idea of a "sound layer", but that sounds (no pun intended) really fine to me.
22:28 < genete> hi rore
22:29 < genete> :)
22:35 < Yoyobuae> how bout this: use waypoints to define the start/end of sounds =)
22:36 < genete> Yoyobuae: waypoints of what valuenode?
22:36 < Yoyobuae> "channel" valuenode =D
22:37 < genete> but what unit is channel? dbA? real number? please tell me, I'm interested
22:37 < Yoyobuae> or maybe put constant waypoint on the sound layer's filename, to switch between files
22:38 < Yoyobuae> by the way, drawing the sound wave is not practical XD
22:38 < genete> I think individual sound file per sound layer is fine, you can mix them if put several ones in the same canvas
22:39 < genete> Yoyobuae: why?
22:39 < Yoyobuae> but then a sound layer is useful only for the duration of the sound, it stays idle the rest of the time
22:39 < Yoyobuae> have you seen the wave of sound files
22:39 < Yoyobuae> ?
22:40 < genete> yes but you can "rewind" it with the time loop layer or a time loop convert or a time offset param
22:40 < genete> Yoyobuae: I've seen it on cinelerra, audacity, etc.
22:40 < genete> s/it/them
22:40 < genete> why not synfigstudio?
22:41 < genete> also you can duplicate it (echoes are easy then)
22:41 < Yoyobuae> maybe i misunderstood. Displaying it is ok
22:41 < Yoyobuae> manually drawing it is not =)
22:41 < genete> oh
22:42 < genete> I meant display it using the graph panel
22:42 < Yoyobuae> maybe "draw" is not the appropiate word there. ;)
22:42 < Yoyobuae> well, back to the waypoint discussion
22:43 < genete> ok
22:43 < Yoyobuae> time loop layers/converts are useful, but somewhat complex
22:43 < Yoyobuae> they're not very intuitive
22:43 < genete> oh! tell it to me! I used them several times on the particles template
22:44 < genete> but time offset is easy
22:44 < Yoyobuae> exactly =). i've seen them too xD
22:44 < genete> maybe the sound layer can have its own time modification paramters more intuitive
22:44 < Yoyobuae> but seeing waypoints on the timetrack, it's easier to understand =)
22:44 < genete> yes
22:45 < genete> but one thing doesn't replace the other
22:45 < Yoyobuae> yeah, true
22:46 < genete> the sound layer is not an inmediate thing but I believe it should be considered for the time the sound is taken more seriously into synfig.
22:46 < genete> I would like hear dooglus's opinion
22:54 -!- Yoyobuae [n=quete@201.224.135.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
23:03 < dooglus> genete: it all sounds good
23:03 < genete> hi dooglus
23:03 < dooglus> genete: hi
23:04 < genete> dooglus: you always have a "but..."
23:04 < dooglus> genete: we need to look at what's currently in the code for sound and see what we have - I've never looked
23:04 < genete> not any "but"?
23:04 < dooglus> no but
23:04 < genete> :)
23:04 < dooglus> I'm willing to do any testing you like on the new features :)
23:05 < genete> tell me then
23:05 < dooglus> tell you what?
23:05 < genete> (Im boringly reviewing the translation of core and studio now)
23:05 < genete> ah
23:06 < genete> I understood you wanted me to test the features recently added
23:06 < dooglus> did you get it updated? I added a new string today
23:06 < dooglus> oh, no. I'm offering to test the sound layer after you implement it ;)
23:06 -!- Yoyobuae [n=quete@201.224.135.156] has joined #synfig
23:06 < genete> I am at the last svn and updated the po thing with make update-po
23:06 < genete> heeee
23:07 < dooglus> if I select an outline or a region and hit control-a, the offset duck isn't selected. this seems good.
23:07 < genete> yes it is a good feature
23:07 < dooglus> otoh, if I do the same with a plant, both its green ducks are selected, and moving it changes the gravity
23:07 < genete> don't change please
23:08 < dooglus> i'm wondering why the green duck isn't selected for regions - what code makes that so
23:08 < genete> CTRL -A (select all) needs a review for some layers, yes
23:10 < dooglus> duckmatic.cpp:
23:10 < dooglus> for(iter=duck_map.begin();iter!=duck_map.end();++iter)
23:10 < dooglus> if(is_duck_group_selectable(iter->second))
23:10 < dooglus> select_duck(iter->second);
23:11 < dooglus> ha:
23:11 < dooglus> if(layer_name=="outline" ||
23:11 < dooglus> layer_name=="region" ||
23:11 < dooglus> layer_name=="polygon" ||
23:11 < dooglus> layer_name=="curve_gradient")
23:11 < dooglus> return false;
23:11 < dooglus> I feel an addition coming on
23:11 < genete> you got it :)
23:12 < dooglus> I was looking at your spray
23:12 < genete> spray?
23:12 < dooglus> saw it was a plant, used select-all to move it, and it changed shape!
23:13 < dooglus> on your feb splash screen
23:13 < genete> foam?
23:13 < dooglus> yes
23:13 < genete> ah
23:13 < dooglus> does it suffer tile effects?
23:13 < dooglus> noise distorted + plant?
23:13 < genete> yes :(
23:13 < dooglus> looks like it does
23:13 < genete> when zoomed in
23:14 < dooglus> that's what I was looking into when I found this duck problem
23:14 < genete> that's why I asked for tiled things the other day
23:17 < dooglus> I thought it was distorted text that was the problem
23:17 < dooglus> but it's plants too
23:18 < genete> yes :/
23:18 < genete> fortunately it looks good when rendering to final output
23:18 < dooglus> remember you asked about the get_color() function a while ago?
23:19 < dooglus> that's what's causing the problem
23:19 < dooglus> the text layer doesn't have a working get_color() function at all
23:19 < genete> when I tried to understand how layers works?
23:19 < dooglus> and I guess plants don't either
23:20 < dooglus> I don't remember why you asked
23:20 < genete> that's beacuse the color of a point is the result of a complex algorithm and not a direct math value like most of the layers?
23:21 < dooglus> I don't know why - maybe just because the code was never written
23:21 < genete> ah
23:23 < genete> dooglus: have you used anytime the color correct layer?
23:32 < CIA-40> synfig: dooglus * r1620 /synfig-core/trunk/src/synfig/savecanvas.cpp: Delete the 'encode_composite' function. Composite valuenodes are just a special kind of Linkable valuenode and don't need special code to save them.
23:32 < CIA-40> synfig: dooglus * r1621 /synfig-studio/trunk/src/gtkmm/duckmatic.cpp: Don't let 'select all' select the green ducks of a plant layer.
23:32 < genete> other request: synfig core seems to have several strings to comment about paramters of layers. It seems that those strigns are not use in studio to show a hint when the paramter is selected (like buttons have when you place the cursor over it)
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 08 00:00:29 2008