--- Log opened Thu Feb 28 00:00:08 2008
--- Day changed Thu Feb 28 2008
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00:09 < dooglus> I don't want to speak too soon, but...
00:10 < dooglus> patching a couple - oh, I spoke too soon.  never mind :)
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00:11  * genete installing synfig into W98 :)
00:11 < genete> brb
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00:23 < genete> it doesn't work :(
00:23 < genete> it complains that the following DLL is missing: LIBGLIBMM-2-4-1.DLL
00:28 < factor> ok back later
00:29 -!- factor [n=Factor@32.148.124.229] has quit ["mIRGGI meni puis"]
00:42 < genete> Three friends go to a bar to take one beer each. 
00:42 < genete> Each beer costs $1 so they decide to put 1 dollar each to pay the beers.
00:43 < genete> After pay, the barman remember that there is an special offer. For each tree beers you take there is 0.5 dollars you get back.
00:43 < genete> As well as 0.5 dollars cents is not divisible by three they decide take 0.1 dollar back and give 0.2 dollars to the barman
00:43 < genete> At the end each one has put 1-0.1 =  0.9 dollars. So 3x0.9=2.7 dollars, plus 0.2 to the barman gives a total of 2.9 dollars.
00:43 < genete> here did the 0.1 dollars go?
00:48 < dooglus> 3 men pay $1 each for beer.  the beer costs $2.50 so there's 50c change
00:48 < dooglus> each man pockets 10c and the other 20c goes to the barman?
00:48 < genete> yes
00:49 < dooglus> so each man has spent 90c, totalling $2.70, the bar has $2.50 and the barman has 20c
00:49 < genete> the bar and the barman is the same thing
00:50 < dooglus> the 20c went to the barman as a tip; the $2.50 went into the business?
00:50 < genete> the barman is self employed
00:50 < dooglus> ok
00:51 < dooglus> so 3 men spent $2.70 in a bar.  $2.50 for beer, and 20c extra 'just because' makes $2.70
00:52 < genete> yes that's the fake. It is counting the 20c two times
00:53 < genete> so it is not needed to sum 3.0. It should sum 2.70 only
00:54 < dooglus> it's about the same vintage as my triangles :)
00:54 < genete> at first read it is so confusing and most of people wonder where the hell is the 10c?
00:54 < genete> :)
00:54 < dooglus> you know the one about the 3 doors and the game show?
00:54 < genete> no, tell me tell me
00:54 < dooglus> ok
00:54 < dooglus> there's a game show on tv each week
00:55 < dooglus> at the end of the game, the winning contestant gets a chance to win the big prize
00:55 < genete> interesting...
00:55 < dooglus> there are 3 doors.  behind one door is the big prize, and behind the other 2 is nothing.
00:56 < dooglus> the host says "pick a door, and then I will open one of the other doors, showing it is empty"
00:56 < dooglus> the host knows where the prize is, so he can always show an empty door.
00:56 < genete> true
00:56 < dooglus> so the contestant picks a door
00:56 < dooglus> then the host opens one of the other 2 doors, shows that its empty
00:56 < dooglus> then asks "do you want to change your mind?"
00:57 < dooglus> should the contestant change her mind?
00:57 < genete> by mind you say door chosen?
00:57 < dooglus> yes
00:57 < dooglus> "do you want to swap to the other door?"
00:58 < dooglus> (not the one I just showed you was empty, of course - the other one you didn't see yet)
00:58 < genete> it is a probability question....
00:58 < dooglus> yes
00:58 < genete> the initial probability of choose the correct one is 1/3
00:59 < dooglus> right
00:59 < genete> after the host opens the empty one there is a 1/2 of oportunities to fail or win
00:59 < dooglus> it's 50:50
00:59 < genete> but it is a combined probaility
01:00 < genete> becasue if keep the first one it has 1/3 at all
01:00 < genete> but if change it has 1/2 of 1/3 of oportunities?
01:01 < dooglus> that's the question
01:01 < dooglus> does changing improve your chance of winning?
01:01 < dooglus> or does it stay the same?
01:01 < genete> I think it is the same
01:02 < genete> becasue it doesn't matter what you choose there is always an empty one opened
01:02 < dooglus> that's what you're supposed to think :)
01:02 < dooglus> like how you're 'supposed' to say '10 days' for the snail
01:02 < genete> Mmmm
01:03 < dooglus> initially, you have a 1/3 chance of having the winning door
01:03 < genete> let me think
01:03 < genete> dont tell me
01:03 < dooglus> ok
01:04 < genete> he should change
01:04 < genete> at first selection
01:04 < genete> he has 1/3 of possibilities
01:04 < genete> but at second one it has 1/2 that is bigger than 1/3
01:05 < genete> what's the probability that he choose the wrong door two times ?
01:05 < genete> 1/3*1/2
01:06 < dooglus> the car doesn't move
01:06 < genete> no no
01:06 < dooglus> I didn't mention that
01:06 < dooglus> the winning door stays the same throughout
01:06 < dooglus> 9
01:07 < dooglus> (the 'big prize' is a car, and the other 2 doors have goats, it turns out.  you don't like goats)
01:07 < genete> what's the probability that he choose the wrong door first time?
01:07 < dooglus> 2/3
01:07 < genete> right
01:07 < genete> so the first time it is 2/3 of loose
01:07 < genete> what's the second one?
01:07 < genete> 1/2
01:07 < dooglus> what's the probability that he chose the wrong door once the host has opened an empty door?
01:08 < genete> that's 1/2
01:08 < dooglus> is it?
01:08 < genete> I think so?
01:08 < dooglus> he either chose a wrong door or the right one
01:08 < dooglus> 1/3 of the time he chose the right one
01:08 < dooglus> 2/3 of the time he didn't
01:08 < genete> right
01:08 < dooglus> the host can't change that
01:09 < genete> true
01:09 < dooglus> if the host opened door other doors and showed they were both empty, that would tell us we had won
01:09 < dooglus> but he only opens one
01:09 < dooglus> he can always do that, and always will
01:09 < genete> yes
01:09 < dooglus> so, him doing that doesn't change our chance of having the right door
01:10 < genete> right
01:10 < dooglus> so we have a 1/3 chance of winning if we don't swap
01:10 < genete> yes
01:10 < dooglus> where's the other 2/3 of the chance?
01:10 < genete> and 2/3 of loose if swap
01:10 < dooglus> of winning
01:11 < genete> concentrated in the other door?
01:11 < dooglus> right
01:11 < genete> cooool
01:11 < genete> so don't swap
01:11 < dooglus> so do :)
01:11 < genete> I know other of doors, what to listen or go to bed?
01:11 < dooglus> we have 33% chance in our first door, and 66% 'elsewhere'
01:12 < dooglus> the host concentrates the 'elsewhere' into a single door for us
01:12 < dooglus> so we should swap to get it, and double our chance of winning
01:12 < dooglus> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem
01:12 < dooglus> it's another old one
01:12 < dooglus> I want to hear your door puzzle
01:12 < genete> you're in a room with only two doors
01:13 < genete> one of the doors leads you to the death
01:13 < genete> the other one to the salvation
01:13 < genete> you don't know which door is each  one
01:13 < dooglus> I heard a funny podcast about this one
01:13 < genete> inside the room there are two guardians
01:13 < genete> one for each door
01:14 < dooglus> the guy who was trying to get the answer was asking "can I feel the doors?  the one to hell would be a bit warmer, surely"
01:14 < genete> lol
01:14 < dooglus> I've heard this before I think
01:14 < dooglus> one guardian always lies, one always tells the truth?
01:14 < genete> yep
01:15 < dooglus> on the podcast it was told differently, but I think it was a mistake
01:15 < genete> and you don't know which one is the one
01:15 < dooglus> they said "the guardian of the bad door lies, the guardian of the good door tells the truth"
01:15 < dooglus> in which can it's easy - just ask "what's 1+1"
01:15 < genete> the question is: you have only one oportuinity to ask to only one of the guardians
01:15 < dooglus> in which *case*
01:16 < genete> what would be your question?
01:16 < dooglus> podcast guy suggested "I've got a parcel for God - can you take it for him?"
01:16 < dooglus> lol
01:16 < dooglus> he really wasn't getting it
01:16 < genete> each guardian knows which door is the death door
01:16 < dooglus> each guardian also needs to know the other guardian's truthfullness
01:17 < genete> of course
01:17 < dooglus> I won't answer, in case rore didn't hear it before
01:17 < dooglus> I have one like it, but harder:
01:17 < dooglus> a king has 3 daughters
01:17 < dooglus> the youngest always tells the truth
01:18 < dooglus> the oldest always lies
01:18 < genete> (you can tell me it by a PM)
01:18 < dooglus> the middle one randomly lies or tells the truth
01:18 < genete> but randomly like synfig random generator? ;)
01:18 < dooglus> a prince comes to visit, and is to marry one of them
01:19 < dooglus> he wouldn't mind marrying the youngest - she always tells the truth - that's fine
01:19 < dooglus> he wouldn't mind marrying the oldest - she always lies, so you can easily know what she's really thinking - just negate what she says
01:19 < genete> and she's the youngest ;)
01:19 < dooglus> yes, but the oldest has the biggest breasts :)
01:20 < dooglus> no, not really - that would spoil the puzzle
01:20 < genete> :D
01:20 < dooglus> he really doesn't want to marry the middle one, because you would never know where you stood with her
01:20 < dooglus> they all look the same age - you can't tell by looking which is which
01:20 < dooglus> he has one question, to ask one of them
01:21 < dooglus> what does he ask, to avoid marrying the middle one?
01:21 < genete> nice!
01:21 < genete> let me think on it.
01:21 < genete> I'll reply tomorrow. And I promise don't look into internet.
01:22 < dooglus> OK, and I'll try to remember the answer :)
01:22 < dooglus> it's really quite hard - I didn't get it without a lot of help
01:23 < dooglus> a common question is "how does the middle one answer, really?"
01:23 < genete> don't worry. I'll give a try tomorrow morning. It is a local holiday tomorrow
01:23 < dooglus> think of it as she flips a coin for each question - and answers truth or lies based on the random coin toss
01:24 < genete> mixed probabilities I guess... 
01:24 < dooglus> except, of course, you don't see her toss the coin - or you just wouldn't marry the coin tossing one :)
01:25 < genete> ok, let's go to bed. And dream with the oldest one and her big ... you know...
01:25 < dooglus> this is a question like your doors one - it's not about probability - you only get one question, and have to guarantee a good choice of bride
01:25 < dooglus> hehe
01:25 < dooglus> goodnight :)
01:25 < genete> night
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02:59 < dooglus> hi pixelgeek
02:59 < dooglus> I'm engaged in another battle with the windows bugs :)
03:00 < pixelgeek> Another?  Fix one already?
03:00  * pixelgeek still got to catch up on logs
03:00 < dooglus> not another bug
03:00 < dooglus> just another battle with the same one :)
03:00 < dooglus> attacking it on a different front
03:01 < dooglus> have just recompiled the compiler, in an attempt to get at it
03:12  * pixelgeek coming to the conclusion that we need more women in the forum!
03:12 < pixelgeek> I was going to vote for Zelgadis, but after his comments......  I don't know now..... ;)
03:14 < dooglus> I don't think he was dissing your robots
03:14 < dooglus> just saying that he was surprised they were such a hit with the ladies ;)
03:22 < dooglus> pixelgeek: I've rebuilt the standand C++ library with a fix for a bug: http://dooglus.rincevent.net/random/MinGW-patched-libstdc++.tar.gz
03:22 < pixelgeek> not didding, just not his taste.
03:22 < pixelgeek> dissing...
03:23 < pixelgeek> I think his sample size may be a bit low.  
03:23 < dooglus> make a backup copy of c:/mingw and extract that archive into c:/ to update the mingw files
03:24 < dooglus> I'd be interested to know if it helps stability
03:24 < pixelgeek> What did you change?
03:24 < dooglus> also, do you have any way of making the recent builds crash semi-reliably?  I don't see 1815 as being much different, if any, than 1796
03:26 < dooglus> I applied the patches found in https://svn.variadic.org/public/trunk/ax_dll_string_fix/ax_dll_string_fix.m4
03:28 < dooglus> just editing the header files was enough to stop the get_meta_data() call causing problems, but then the ostream in color.h (the hex string handling stuff) started failing, because the stdc++ lib also needed rebuilding
03:35 < pixelgeek> I don't have a turnkey way of failing - except multithreading and adding a timeline to pirates.sif
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03:37 < dooglus> right - and that still fails
03:37 < dooglus> that's the first thing I tried
03:39 < pixelgeek> So just delete the include and lib dirs and replace with the ones you provide?
03:41 < dooglus> no
03:41 < dooglus> my archive only provides a few files
03:41 < dooglus> you need to keep the stuff you've got, and only overwrite the files my archive contains
03:42  * pabs3 looking at upgrading phpBB
03:42 < dooglus> if you extract the archive into c:\ it should do the right thing - my archive contains \mingw and so does c:\
03:42 < pixelgeek> my include dir has 4 subdirs. c++, ddk, GL & sys
03:42 < pixelgeek> scratch that last comment.
03:42 < dooglus> the archive has:
03:42 < dooglus> MinGW/include/c++/3.4.5/mingw32/bits/c++config.h
03:42 < dooglus> MinGW/include/c++/3.4.5/bits/basic_string.h
03:42 < dooglus> MinGW/include/c++/3.4.5/bits/basic_string.tcc
03:43 < dooglus> and that's all
03:43 < dooglus> (for 'include', that is)
03:43 < pixelgeek> yes, sorry I didn't click down far enough
03:43 < dooglus> it also has:
03:43 < dooglus> MinGW/lib/debug/libstdc++.a (and .la)
03:43 < dooglus> MinGW/lib/libstdc++.a (and .la)
03:43 < dooglus> MinGW/lib/libsupc++.a (and .la)
03:43 < pixelgeek> 23 open windows on my desktop right now
03:44 < dooglus> I made a backup of \mingw, built and installed the library, then compared the backup with the new version to see what had changed.  those 9 files had
03:45 < pixelgeek> so backing up everything is probably excessive - good job disk space is cheap
03:45 < dooglus> I ran:
03:45 < dooglus> tar cfz MinGW.tar.gz MinGW
03:45 < dooglus> in /
03:45 < dooglus> to make the backup
03:46 < dooglus> but yes, you only really need to back up those 9 files, but the hassle of remembering which files were in which directory...
03:46 < pixelgeek> :)
03:46 < dooglus> the backup is 21Mb
03:46 < pixelgeek> done - any particular version you want me to build? 
03:47 < pixelgeek> (I should zip mine - it's 76MB)
03:47 < dooglus> I have a version here that's using glib mutexes
03:47 < dooglus> I've not checked it in, because it means adding glibmm as a dependency for core
03:47 < dooglus> so I guess just build the svn latest
03:48 < pixelgeek> post 0.61.08 then?
03:48 < pixelgeek> OK
03:48 < dooglus> if it meant that it would solve the problems we're having on windows then I guess it would be worth doing, but it doesn't, so it isn't :)
03:48 < pixelgeek> genete - I've never found a version of GTK that can be installed on Win98.
03:49 < pixelgeek> (and I looked!)
03:50 < dooglus> if you turn off the hyperthreading, can you then sometimes add a timeline to pirates?
03:50 < dooglus> or does it always crash anyway, even without hyperthreading?
03:50 < pixelgeek> Always.  
03:50 < pixelgeek> I can alsways add a timeline
03:51 < pixelgeek> Problems can come up scanning around the timeline too fast, but the initial creation of a timeline works
03:51 < dooglus> I'm using the syninternals process explorer to set the 'affinity' to CPU0 only
03:51 < dooglus> I guess that's the same as what you're doing
03:51 < pixelgeek> nod
03:51 < dooglus> but does that disable hyperthreading?
03:51 < pixelgeek> yes
03:52 < dooglus> I'm limiting it to one CPU, but...
03:52 < pixelgeek> hyperthreading shows up as 2 CPUs under XP
03:52 < dooglus> I have a dual core CPU
03:52 < dooglus> oh, and no hyperthreading?
03:53 < dooglus> I see 2 CPUs in XP
03:53 < pixelgeek> Pentium 4 is where all the hyperthreading fun is
03:53 < pixelgeek> You literally have to CPUs in yours
03:53 < pixelgeek> two
03:53 < pixelgeek> I have one that pretends to be two
03:53 < dooglus> ok, so the real problem is whenever XP thinks it has 2 CPUs, whether through hyperthreading or having a real multi-core CPU, synfig crashes :)
03:54 < dooglus> it's not specific to hyperthreading
03:55 < dooglus> I wonder if keeping one CPU very busy would also 'fix' the problem
03:57 < dooglus> I was able to add a timeline to pirates without setting the process affinity
03:57 < dooglus> y
03:58 < dooglus> by running another program at the same time, using CPU1 constantly
03:58 < pixelgeek> I think I did it once without setting affinity, but it fell over immediately afterwards
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03:59 < pixelgeek> :)  SYnfig falls over on one CPU, falls over twice as fast on 2
04:01 < pixelgeek> So does synfig run with out errors on your debugger now?
04:01 < pixelgeek> (until it crashes?)
04:02 < pabs3> ok, disabling the forums for a bit so I can do the upgrade
04:02 < pixelgeek> Can you run the 'add timeline to pirates' test under the debugger, or are you still working other bugs?
04:02 < dooglus> the debugger doesn't complain now about the get_meta_data or get_hex() calls
04:03 < dooglus> running studio in the debugger while putting a timeline on the pirates doesn't seem to show me anything very useful
04:04 < dooglus> it's not a memory debugger - it's not watching out for dubious memory accesses - it just shouts when something illegal happens
04:15 < pixelgeek> Windows crashes aren't illegal?  ;)  Just expected
04:16 < pixelgeek> Does it always fail at the same point when you do that?  Can you set a breakpoint and step through to the crash?
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04:16 < pixelgeek> Compare and contrast with CPU affinity not set?
04:22 < dooglus> the debugger takes a long time to start up with synfigstudio
04:22 < dooglus> and doesn't seem to like running it twice
04:23 < dooglus> so it's a slow process
04:23 < dooglus> last time I loaded pirates, studio didn't crash, but the debugger did!
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04:34 < dooglus> pixelgeek: I get stack traces like this: http://dooglus.rincevent.net/random/pirates-timeline-crash-1-stack-2.png
04:34 < dooglus> I'll try again to see if it's the same place each time
04:35 < dooglus> (s/2/1/ for the other thread with a viewable stack)
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04:43 < pabs3> ok, phpBB upgraded, let me know if there is anything strange
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04:56 < pixelgeek> Can you break on the instruction at 0xF38F272 before it tries to write?
04:56 < pixelgeek> (I feel like Grandma trying to teach egg sucking)
05:00 < pixelgeek> Different question - when I send the make script output to a logfile, I only get the commands and responses, never the error messages.  Is there a way to pipe the error messages into the file instead of them appearing on screen?
05:00 < pabs3> with bash: make &> logfile
05:01 < pixelgeek> under mingw i use './make_all.sh > 1819.log'
05:01 < pixelgeek> does the & make the  difference?
05:02 < pixelgeek> I thought that just ran the process in the background
05:10 < dooglus> F38F262 isn't real code
05:10 < dooglus> the code's all between 400000 and 800000
05:11 < dooglus> and it's different each time where the crash happens
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05:12 < dooglus> I suspect some memory corruption is happening, which is legal but wrong, and then, later, something trips up due to the corrupted stack or whatever
05:27 < pixelgeek> running 1819, compiled with the patch mingw headers
05:28 < pixelgeek> Still seeing it falling over making circles.
05:33 < pixelgeek> Not noticeably more stable so far :(
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08:57 < pabs3> anyone about? 
08:58 < pabs3> what do people think of this string for the message when synfig can't find a browser on macos/linux? 
08:58 < pabs3> "No browser was found. Please load this website manually:"
08:59 < cizra> What website are you advertising?
08:59 < cizra> The message is OK, but showing that kind of message is fishy.
08:59 < cizra> Or opening pages automatically.
08:59 < pabs3> the ones in the help menu - basically wiki pages on synfig.org
08:59 < cizra> OK, that's more acceptable.
09:00 < pabs3> I plan to make the about dialog use this too, so people don't have to copy/paste the url into the browser
09:00 < cizra> A good idea.
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09:17 < CIA-41> synfig: pabs * r1820 /synfig-studio/trunk/ (configure.ac src/gtkmm/app.cpp): 
09:17 < CIA-41> synfig: Improve the browser launch functionality:
09:17 < CIA-41> synfig: * Respect user preferences (use "xdg-open" on Linux, "open" on MacOS)
09:17 < CIA-41> synfig: * Try a list of browsers instead of just one
09:17 < CIA-41> synfig: * Show a message dialog if none of the browsers could be loaded
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09:52 < genete> morning!!!
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10:40 < genete> dooglus: I give up :(
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11:14 < dooglus> genete: ha :)
11:15 < dooglus> genete: what ideas have you had, and why didn't they work?
11:15 < genete> the best question I have invented leads me to a 75% of probability of success
11:15 < genete> but the 25% remains :(
11:16 < genete> "If you were the older sister, what do you reply if I ask how much is 2+2?"
11:17 < genete> a) If she's the older she will reply other thing than 4
11:17 < genete> b) If shes the smallers she will reply other thing than 4
11:18 < genete> c) If she's the middle she would reply 50% of times 4 and 50% of times other than 4
11:18 < dooglus> so marry the one you ask if she doesn't say 4, else marry one of the others?
11:19 < dooglus> I would say you have an 84% chance of success there (5/6)
11:19 < genete> no
11:20 < dooglus> 1-in-3 times you ask the middle one, and 1-in-2 of those times you end up marrying her
11:20 < dooglus> chance of failure is 1/2 * 1/3 = 1/6
11:20 < genete> yes that's true
11:20 < genete> but I don't have 100%
11:20 < genete> should I?
11:21 < dooglus> the 100% is divided into 3 equal parts by your choice of who to ask
11:21 < dooglus> and the middle 33 is divided into two 16% halves by whether she tells the truth
11:22 < genete> but the challenge is to find the question to reach 100% or simply find the best question?
11:22 < dooglus> both
11:22 < dooglus> the best question reaches 100%
11:22 < dooglus> I think when I heard it originally, it had to be a yes/no question that you ask
11:23 < dooglus> but yours can be re-written to be "if you were the oldest sister, would you agree that 2=2=4" or even "if you were the oldest one, would you tell the truth?", or just "are you the oldest sister?"
11:24 < dooglus> those all work just as well as your question don't they?
11:24 < genete> yes
11:24 < dooglus> do you want a hint?
11:25 < genete> the problem is that questions that haven't a yes/no reply have not a way to analize
11:25 < dooglus> there is a yes/no question that solves the problem
11:25 < dooglus> so you can limit your search to just yes/no questions
11:26 < genete> I think somethig like " is she older / younger than you? would solve the problem
11:26 < genete> becasue you know things of two of they at the same time
11:26 < dooglus> right
11:27 < genete> "is she older than you?" And I point to one of the other.
11:27 < genete> cases:
11:27 < genete> (I'll use paper and pencil) wait
11:27 < dooglus> always consider the case when you've asked the middle one:
11:28 < dooglus> you ask the middle one "is she older than you", she randomly says "yes" or "no", and you have gained nothing?
11:28 < genete> grrrr
11:28 < dooglus> obviously, it's the middle one who is causing the trouble here - you might be talking to her
11:29 < genete> yes
11:29 < rore> ahah, I didn't noticed you keep talking about the "weird" questions :)
11:29 < rore> lot of backlog to read
11:29 < genete> morning rore :)
11:30 < rore> good morning genete :)
11:30 < rore> and good day everyone
11:30 < dooglus> rore: simple summary of this one:  there are 3 women.  the youngest tells the truth, the oldest lies, and the middle one answers randomly.  you can't tell which is which, and can ask just one question of one of them.  you then have to pick one to marry, and you don't want to pick the middle one.
11:30 < dooglus> "do you like white robots?"
11:30 < dooglus> no, that doesn't work
11:31 < genete> ha
11:31 < genete> dooglus: every quetion I invent to ask to the middle one is always replied randomly so I always have a 50% of have yes or not as reply.
11:32 < dooglus> that's right.  you need to find a question which means that that doesn't matter
11:32 < genete> Mmmmm
11:32 < dooglus> genete: after asking your question and getting an answer, you won't know which girl you're going to pick - but you will know it's not the middle one.
11:32 < genete> and if I ask to the others then it matters... Mmmm
11:32 < dooglus> you just want to avoid the middle one - that's your only goal.
11:34  * rore don't want to marry any girl, problem solved :D
11:34 < rore> doesn't*
11:34 < dooglus> the guy in the puzzle doesn't want to either, but the king is making him.
11:34 < dooglus> or something.
11:37 < rore> "just one question of one of them" <--- just one question to one of them, or one question to each one of them ? 
11:37 < dooglus> you can ask only one question, to one girl.  and you don't know which girl is which.
11:37 < dooglus> "to ask a question of somebody" means "to ask somebody a question"
11:38 < genete> "you need to find a question wich means that the reply doesn't matter"....
11:40 < dooglus> ... if you ask the middle girl
11:40 < genete> so the reply does matter if I ask to any of the other two...
11:41 < dooglus> yes
11:41 < dooglus> if you ask the middle girl, she can't give you any information
11:41 < dooglus> so whatever she says, you have to pick one of the other 2 girls
11:42 < dooglus> right?
11:42 < genete> right
11:42 < dooglus> you never know when you're talking to the middle girl
11:42 < dooglus> so you can never pick the girl you ask
11:42 < genete> but if you ask to one othe others and you get any information then marry her
11:43 < dooglus> how do you know if you 'got information'?  all you got was a 'yes' or a 'no', and you don't even know if it was a random answer...
11:44 < genete> <genete> "you need to find a question wich means that the reply doesn't matter"....
11:44 < genete> <dooglus> ... if you ask the middle girl
11:44 < genete> <genete> so the reply does matter if I ask to any of the other two...
11:44 < genete> <dooglus> yes
11:44 < genete> what means "does it matter"?
11:45 < rore> is important 
11:45 < dooglus> you know that the middle girl is answering randomly, and so her answer is meaningless - it doesn't matter - it doesn't give you any information
11:46 < dooglus> so if you're talking to the middle girl, the only way to avoid her is to pick one of the other two
11:46 < dooglus> but you never know when you're talking to her, so your winning strategy will always involve not picking the girl you're talking to
11:47 < dooglus> http://www.google.com/history/items is quite interesting - it's a list of 10 things you might be interested in, based on the kind of stuff you've searched for in the past :)
11:47 < genete> "is she the middle one?" and pick the other.
11:48 < dooglus> #1 in my list: http://www.ollydbg.de/ - I'd never heard of it before, but apparently "OllyDbg is a 32-bit assembler level analysing debugger for Microsoft® Windows"...  guess I must have been searching for Windows debuggers a lot :)
11:48 < rore> Darn, it's close to imposible /o\
11:49 < dooglus> "is she the middle one" will get a false answer if you ask the oldest girl
11:49 < rore> ahah "compile a kernel the debian way" ... :D
11:49 < dooglus> :)
11:49 < genete> I give up :(
11:50 < rore> yeah, and a "no" answer if you ask the young, and a yes or no if you ask the middle, so you can't decide, argh
11:50 < rore> oh wait
11:50 < rore> hmm 
11:51 < rore> bahhhh I can't think with a cat trying to lick my nose !!!!!!!
11:53 < rore> I think I found it
11:53 < dooglus> remember your 2-doors puzzle, genete?
11:53 < rore> I need to rethink it a bit
11:53 < genete> Mmmm
11:54 < dooglus> the answer involves combining both guards' answers, so you know the reply you get involves exactly one lie
11:55 < rore> Ah, I think I got it, for the 3 girls, but that is far from obvious
11:55 < dooglus> rore: pm me your answer?
11:56 < rore> ok
11:57 < dooglus> genete: I'm afraid rore just married one of them.  there are only two left now :)
11:58 < genete> :(
11:58 < genete> I have a medium headache today...
11:59 < dooglus> I'm sorry.  I'll stop torturing you with twisted logic puzzles then.
11:59 < genete> don't worry
11:59 < rore> I'm sure the king can wait until tomorrow to marry his daugthers ;)
11:59 < genete> I'll keep it on my to do things and give you a reply asap
12:02 < rore> anyway ... lunch break \o/
12:04 < genete> I'll take a shower to see if I can calm the headache...
12:07 < rore> heh, I hope it will, headaches are so annoying
12:07 < genete> it is a medium one anyway :)
12:15 < genete> I'll have lunch outside home. See you later.
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16:19 < factor> back later
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21:28 < dooglus> feeling any better genete?
21:28 < genete> it still a 25% ut better yes, thanks
21:28 < genete> but^
21:28 < genete> I have a question regarding pricesses
21:29 < genete> =)
21:29 < genete> if one of her doesn't know the answer would reply "I don't know"?
21:29 < genete> ir it must be always yes/no
21:30 < genete> or^
21:32 < rore> I think you can ask wathever you want, not only things that need a "yes/no" answer. I suppose that if the one that tells the true don't know something she'll say it
21:34 < genete> rore: so finnaly you got the correct question?
21:35 < rore> yup, a little before you left for a shower
21:35 < genete> rore: but what's supposed to reply the one that always lie? "I don't know"?
21:36 < rore> there was no "I don't know" answer, they all know the answer to the question
21:36 < genete> so I don't have the solution yet :(
21:37 < genete> I don't mind give up, please tell me the question (private message if you like)
21:37 < rore> genete: I'll pm you a clue ;)
21:37 < genete> ok
21:37 < genete> :)
21:41 < dooglus> I think the lying sister can make up any lie she likes
21:42 < dooglus> if the true answer is "I don't know" then she will answer "yes" or "no" I guess
21:42 < genete> :( so my proposed question is not the solution
21:42 < dooglus> no
21:42 < dooglus> the solution is a lot cleaner if you are allowed a non yes/no question
21:43 < genete> so is a non yes/no question allowed?
21:44 < dooglus> if you like.  the solution can be phrased as a yes/no question anyway
21:45 < dooglus> rore's solution wasn't a yes/no question - it was a "which ... ?" question
21:49 < rore> That's bad, we will make genete's headache come back 
21:49 < genete> np
22:02 < genete> I got it!
22:02 < rore> tadaaaaaaaa
22:02 < rore> \o/ genete \o/ 
22:02 < genete> \o/
22:03 < genete> the fact is that it is very simple once you see the reply
22:04 < rore> yup :)
22:05 < dooglus> "the reply"?
22:05 < dooglus> you mean it's easy once you know the answer?  :)
22:06 < genete> yup
22:06 < dooglus> I think it's a great little puzzle
22:06 < genete> I have other one... but let me prepare it in english
22:06 < dooglus> because when you first try solving it, you can quite easily convince yourself that there is no possible solution
22:06 < genete> yup
22:06 < rore> exactly :)
22:07 < dooglus> and the solution is so tidy
22:07 < genete> me and my girlfriend spend some time during luch to solve it without sucess
22:07 < dooglus> genete: did rore's hint help?
22:08 < genete> she gave me one hint about something i didn't use yet
22:08 < genete> and that's the path for solution
22:09 < dooglus> (meanwhile, back on synfig, I'm back in linux, having given up hunting for the bug in windows - I'm using helgrind to try to find it here)
22:10 < timonator> woah, it seems that a zoom layer freezes my synfig
22:11 < timonator> hope the problem is gone in newest svn...
22:11 < genete> lately I find very difficult to make synfig crash in linux. Have you got any new one apart of the ones that involves exported canvases?
22:11 < timonator> hm?
22:14 < dooglus> genete: zooming in too far probably still crashes
22:15 < genete> with a particular file or always?
22:17 < timonator> now it works
22:17 < timonator> maybe i zoomed in too far.
22:17 < genete> I zoom beyond 1600 with a normal layer and it doens't crash or hang
22:18 < timonator> OK
22:18 < timonator> i'll see if it will happen again later
22:29 < dooglus> genete: what's your puzzle?
22:29 < genete> I'm wirtting in english now, wait please :)
22:30 < genete> writting^
22:30 < genete> is almost finished
22:30 < genete> I'll paste here and forget if any typo there ;)
22:30 < genete> Two friends (both mathematicians) meet in the street after a lot of time without see each other.
22:30 < genete> "what about you?" said one of them. " I get married and now I have three daugthers.
22:30 < genete> "what are their ages?". The other one said:
22:30 < genete> "The product of their ages is 36, and the sum is the number of the house that we have in front of us".
22:30 < genete> After a while the other mathematician made some calculations in a piece of paper and replied:
22:30 < genete> "I need other date to know the ages of your daughters".
22:30 < genete> "Ah yes" replied the other one. "The older plays the piano"
22:30 < genete> What are the ages of all of the daugthers?
22:31 < genete> ;)
22:31 < dooglus> prime factors are 2,2,3,3
22:31 < genete> be careful...
22:32 < genete> not so easy ;)
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22:34 < rore> oh great, another riddle
22:35 < dooglus> possibilies: 1+2+18=21 1+3+12=16 1+4+9=14 1+6+6=13 2+2+9=13 2+3+6=11 3+3+4=10
22:35 < genete> there are much more ;)
22:35 < dooglus> 1+1+36=38
22:35 < rore> ahah, I remember that one
22:35 < rore> but I don't remember the answer XD
22:37 < dooglus> much more?
22:37 < genete> there is other one that sums 11
22:37 < genete> not much more ;)
22:38 < genete> oops
22:38 < rore> dooglus: you can ignore the  1+6+6=13, because of the piano stuff :) 
22:38 < genete> sorry
22:38 < genete> no more for 11 sorry
22:39 < genete> rore: why?
22:39 < dooglus> rore: I guess the piano stuff wouldn't be important if it didn't resolve an ambiguity
22:39 < rore> because the "older one plays piano" says that there is *one* older girl, but here there's 2 
22:40 < dooglus> they stand by house 13 - there are 2 ways of making 13
22:40 < rore> and that's all I remember about this puzzle
22:40 < dooglus> 1+6+6 = 2+2+9 = 13
22:40 < genete> yup, dooglus is right
22:40 < genete> and beat me for a few hours!! :(
22:41 < rore> I don't get that last part
22:41 < rore> oh wait
22:41 < genete> "I need other date to know the ages of your daughters".
22:41 < dooglus> they both know the sum of the ages (but we don't) because they can see the house number
22:41 < rore> ok
22:41 < rore> yeah, I just got it :)
22:41 < genete> that's the clue
22:41 < dooglus> "data", not "date"
22:41 < dooglus> (I guess)
22:42 < genete> oops sorry 
22:42 < genete> that's the typo i mentioned (embarrassed)
22:43 < rore> that's funny, I remembered the question, remembered that everything made sense, but I wasn't able to find it alone :)
22:43 < rore> I do hope mathematicians don't talk that way in real life :=
22:43 < rore> ;)
22:43 < dooglus> heh
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22:45 < rore> in general, I'm too lazy to write down all the possible answers for a*b*c=36
22:46 < dooglus> :)
22:47 < pixelgeek> Whew - I'm glad I missed that set of mindbenders....
22:48 < pixelgeek> I've been having fun with scenes from films
22:49 < pixelgeek> As a relaxation at the end of one of our meetings we try and solve invisibles....
22:49 < pixelgeek> Anyone here into movies?
22:50 < genete> I've seen "Jumpers" this evenning in the cinema.
22:50 < pixelgeek> Oooh - what did you think?  The reviews seem pretty scathing, but it looks like a lot of fun.
22:51 < genete> http://www.jumperthemovie.com/
22:51 < pixelgeek> Try this one http://www.filmwise.com/invisibles/invisible_373.shtml
22:51 < genete> well the other films were a crap so I decide to go to see this one :)
22:52  * rore is the kind that almost never goes to cinemas, and that goes easily bored by movies /o\
22:52 < pixelgeek> Took me ages but I finally got the 8th one....
22:52 < genete> interesting
22:52 < pixelgeek> Hi rore - prefer a good book?  
22:52 < rore> exactly :)
22:52 < genete> but I now know the name in spanish of some of them that I'm sure is not the correct translation :(
22:53 < pixelgeek> btw, my wife agrees on the white robots too.  Although she likes your splash screen too.
22:53 < rore> or some "dumb" action movies, ahaha XD 
22:53 < pixelgeek> I can translate for you 
22:53 < genete> #1 Oficial y Caballero
22:53 < pixelgeek> si
22:53 < pixelgeek> An officer and a gentleman
22:54 < rore> that invisible stuff is fun, even though I'm sure that even with the heads of the people I couldn't find the films
22:54 < genete> yup
22:55 < pixelgeek> I don't think #2 needs translation, unless it was marketed as something different there
22:55 < genete> It seems that I've not seem all of them
22:55 < pixelgeek> You could probably google it really easily
22:55 < genete> #1 american pie?
22:55 < pixelgeek> ?
22:55 < pixelgeek> You mean for 2?
22:55 < genete> yup
22:56 < pixelgeek> Nope
22:56 < genete> dooglus: other puzzle:
22:56 < genete> A milkman has a can of 8 liters full of milk and have two more of 5 and 3 liters of capacity.
22:56 < genete> A customer ask for 4 liters of milk.
22:56 < genete> How can the milkman calculate it and give to the customer exactly 4 liters in the can of 5 liters of capacity?
22:56 < pixelgeek> http://www.google.com/search?q=vote+for+pedro
22:57 < genete> http://www.resurrectionsong.com/images/uploads/pedro.jpg
22:57 < genete> never seen that film :(
22:58 < pixelgeek> As a Brit, I found it truely bizarre, but the yanks in the audience seemed to enjoy it.  (Rore would hate it)
22:59 < pixelgeek> I know the answer to the milk churns....
22:59 < rore> Heh, strangely, I heard about that movie... because of a weird moon-boots story :]
23:00 < rore> I used to know the answer to the milk churns :D
23:00 < genete> I don't know the answer for that and will try to find it
23:00 < timonator> can i - with a noise gradient - get the awesome looks of "nearest neighbour" with the cool animation of all the other interpolation methods?
23:01 < timonator> i want it to be blocky as hell, but animate nevertheless
23:01 < pixelgeek> weird moon-boots story - sounds like it involves alcohol....
23:01 < pixelgeek> timonator: 'nearest neighbour'?
23:02 < timonator> for interpolation method
23:02 < genete> for the noise gradient pixelgeek 
23:04 < timonator> until i find a decent solution, a translate layer should suffice
23:04  * pixelgeek having trouble visualizing the expected results
23:04 < timonator> somehow make the quadrats slowly change colors
23:04 < timonator> that would be sleek
23:08 < genete> that's the sequence for the milkman: (8,0,0) (5,0,3) (5,3,0) (2,3,3) (2,5,1) (7,0,1) (7,1,0) (4,1,3) (4,4,0)
23:11 < rore> worst than the towers of hanoï :)
23:11 < genete> :)
23:11 < genete> similar
23:14 < timonator> can't synfig stop the renderer or something?
23:14 < timonator> when i call "render" again while it already renders synfig freezes
23:15 < genete> timonator: I think that nearest neigbour uses a step interpolation. Anyway it is cool to simulate an untunned TV
23:17 < dooglus> genete: I got to 2,5,1 but didn't see how to finish it!
23:18 < genete> from 2,5,1 move the 5 onto the 2
23:18 < genete> and get 7,0,1
23:18 < dooglus> I see it now
23:20 < timonator> my new comp's too slow for noise gradients :(
23:20 < dooglus> genete: Start with a half cup of tea and a half cup of coffee. Take one tablespoon of the tea and mix it in with the coffee. Take one tablespoon of this mixture and mix it back in with the tea. Which of the two cups contains more of its original contents?
23:21 < timonator> you guys said using a multi cpu system makes synfig crashy?
23:21 < pixelgeek> timonator: yup
23:21 < timonator> :(
23:22 < pixelgeek> But there's usually a way to set your PC to only use one CPU for a specific application
23:22 < timonator> that's not the problem
23:22 < rore> hm?
23:22 < timonator> the speed is the problem :/
23:22 < rore> I didn't noticed that, but I really didn't used synfig enough :/
23:22 < timonator> i mean when rendering
23:23 < timonator> say, when i want to render to .png, i would just supply a filename ending in .png, turn it to auto and it would run?
23:23 < genete> dooglus: the tea
23:24 < timonator> that just causes it to get all crashy
23:24 < dooglus> genete: oh, really?
23:24 < timonator> i mean, crash immediately
23:25 < dooglus> timonator: there used to be a bug with the 'auto' target - it was only calculating the target to use based on the filename once, and using the same every time from then on, even if you changed the filename
23:25 < AkhI1> I have a crazy idea. How obout making special filter layer whick will process some special image processing language. Like RSL, GLSL and processing ?
23:25 < timonator> oh ok
23:26 < timonator> no, that wasn't it, dooglus 
23:27 < genete> dooglus: T=tea; C= coffee. dT = tablespoon of tea; dC = tablespoon of coffee 
23:27 < rore> heh, I never heard of those before (I mean, RSL and GLSL). I'd say "GEGL!!!" :)
23:27 < dooglus> RSL = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shading_language#RenderMan_Shading_Language ?
23:27 < AkhI1> yes
23:28 < dooglus> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLSL
23:28 < timonator> strange. when i set it to "render 0-10f" it works, but not "0-10s"
23:28 < genete> the tea cup has: T-dT+d(dT) +dC and the cup of coffee has: C-dC-d(dC)+dT
23:28 < genete> so the cup of tea has more tea (just d(dT))
23:28 < AkhI1> aqsis and pixie is open source renderman implementation which has rsl virtual machines
23:28 < timonator> ah, never mind, synfig just has problems with creating new directories
23:29 < dooglus> timonator: specifically?  how do I reproduce?
23:29 < dooglus> timonator: and which OS is this?
23:29 < dooglus> genete: there is the same volume in each cup at the end, right?
23:29 < timonator> linux, make it render to /home/dooglus/blabla/foo.png
23:29 < genete> dooglus: right
23:30 < dooglus> genete: suppose the original volume in each is V, and suppose that the coffee cup now has X tea in it
23:31 < dooglus> genete: the coffee cup has X tea and (V-X) coffee
23:31 < dooglus> genete: so the tea cup must have (V-X) tea and V-(V-X) coffee, right?
23:31 < dooglus> ie the coffee cup has V-X coffee, and the tea cup has V-X tea - the same
23:32 < genete> processing the last senetence
23:32 < dooglus> there is V total tea.  X tea is in the coffee cup, so V-X must be in the other
23:33 < genete> I see
23:33 < dooglus> timonator: great, thanks
23:33 < dooglus> glibmm-ERROR **: 
23:33 < dooglus> unhandled exception (type unknown) in signal handler
23:33 < timonator> yup
23:34 < timonator> say, when i encode a bunch of pngs with -ovc lavc, will a normal windows computer be able to play it without any further intervention?
23:35 < pixelgeek> Post a link, and I can tell you ;)
23:36 < AkhI1> genete: it maight be any language. even some simplified C which will parsed and compiled to binary. But this "shaders" should be editeble without restarting synfig
23:38 < genete> AkhI1: so would that be a script interface?
23:39 < AkhI1> not sure
23:39 < AkhI1> it should be fast enough 
23:41 < dooglus> AkhI1: what kind of input will the filter layer get?  just a 2d image?
23:42 < AkhI1> everything like standart filter
23:42 < AkhI1> bools, floats, canvas, strings
23:43 < AkhI1> canvases* not one
23:44 < AkhI1> ok.. I'll show you example RSL code. wait a minute
23:50 < genete> AkhI1: would that help to speed up synfig render?
23:50 < AkhI1> it will be slower then C filters any way
23:51 < AkhI1> but some times artist or techical director want to make special filter only for one shot
23:51 -!- pixelgeek [i=86868804@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0536411abd8f4df2] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:52 < AkhI1> http://www.renderpixie.com/pixiewiki/Tutorials/BakeToTexture not best example
23:53 < AkhI1> perhaps I just have to learn to write synfig plugins...
23:54 < genete> BTW, synfig forum has lost the voira logo on the left top corner after pabs3 phpbb update.
23:58 < AkhI1> oh gods... colorcorrect made from 337 lines... it is hard to learn
23:59 -!- pixelgeek [i=86868804@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-404ffe3bd02b7faf] has joined #synfig
--- Log closed Fri Feb 29 00:00:28 2008