--- Log opened Thu Feb 12 00:00:00 2009
--- Day changed Thu Feb 12 2009
00:00 < pixelgeek> Oooh - that should probably be pushed to SVN then (if it hasn't already)
00:00 < genete> prepare the pocket :)
00:00 < pixelgeek> Dell has one for ~$1.5K.  
00:00 < pixelgeek> Yup.
00:01 < genete> yes, I'll do a patch for that. it has a separated commit from uiomae so it will be easy to pass to svn
00:01 < pixelgeek> Not going for a high end gamer rig.  :)
00:01  * pixelgeek afk - got a meeting to go to.  
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03:32 < krish> pabs3: 
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04:44 < pabs3> krish: did you have a question to ask me?
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05:11 < krish> pabs3: yes, what about gsoc 2009?
05:12 < pabs3> everything we prepared for last year is still there: http://synfig.org/GoogleSoC
05:13 < pabs3> I don't think we've discussed 2009 yet, presumably someone will want to apply though
05:24 < pabs3> I personally don't have time to put in though
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14:57 < Yoyobuae> genete: hey, i just saw what uiomae is doing
14:57 < Yoyobuae> pretty amazing
14:57 < genete> yes! and still working on it!
14:59 < genete> brb
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15:59 < genete> We are in!: http://www.trophees-du-libre.org/content/view/120/57/lang,en/
15:59 < Zelgadis> Hey, everyone!
15:59 < genete> hi Zelgadis
15:59 < Zelgadis> genete: Congratulations! To us all! And thank you for your efforts!
15:59 < Zelgadis> genete: In Inkscape situation with sharp corners and almost-collinear tangents is worse than in synfig. If the length of sharp edge exceeds defined threshold (Meter limit), then the outline just becomes cropped. See: http://img6.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ink01vh9.png and http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ink02it2.png
16:01 < rore> moin 
16:01 < rore> heh, good to know that synfig was taken into account for the TdL :)
16:01 < genete> Zelgadis: so our render is better :)
16:02 < Zelgadis> genete: a bit better ~_^
16:02 < genete> rore: moin? it should be evening?
16:02 < rore> (and I agree that sometimes the way inkscape handles the sharp corners is a PITA)
16:02 < rore> genete: well, "moin" is for any part of the day, it's not a short version of "morning"
16:02 < genete> moin then :)
16:02 < rore> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moin
16:03 < pabs3> genete: is that the demo reel on the TdL page?
16:04 < genete> yes, they put it there not me! :)
16:04 < rore> ah yeah, I wondered what was the flash thing that I couldn't see 
16:04 < Zelgadis> cool!
16:06 < genete> I'm not sure if it is good. Being famous It is supposed to be a negative score. :-/
16:06 < rore> famous? Is the demo reel famous? ;)
16:07 < pabs3> rore: youtube works with swfdec 0.8 if you want flash
16:08 < genete> rore: do you consider 12,883 views as famous?
16:08 < rore> pabs3: well, youtube works fine with clive too :)
16:08 < Zelgadis> genete: views is non equal to use cases
16:09 < rore> genete: hm, no
16:09 < genete> Ok, I'm happy then :)
16:09 < pabs3> rore: sure :)
16:09 < rore> genete: my crappy cat animation has 8,286 views so that means nothing :p
16:10 < genete> my most viewed video has 9.171 and it is a Synfig tutorial 
16:11 < rore> pabs3: also, I like to see some people curse and call me a techno-retard when I tell them "I can't see that, I don't have flash" :D (yeah I'm weird I suppose)
16:11 < pabs3> :) fair enuf
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16:20 < genete> did anyone ever hear about sswf? "This library enables others to add support for Flash in their own project. At this time, it supports only Flash output. Later this year it will support loading Flash animations."
16:22 < pabs3> yep
16:23 < genete> and its license is a problem for us?
16:23 < pabs3> no idea, which license is it?
16:23 < genete> The SSWF project is protected by the MIT license
16:24 < genete> This means you can freely reuse the 	code for free and prioprietary projects. 
16:24 < pabs3> yeah, MIT is GPL compatible
16:46 < pabs3> wow, sswf got really commercial
16:50 < genete> Zelgadis: openoffice.org Draw does the same than Inkscape but the decision angle is much smaller
16:51 < Zelgadis> genete: In Inkscape you could set decision angle through Meter limit parameter (see screenshots)
16:51  * genete trying now
16:52 < Zelgadis> Still I don't like results with Meter limit set to big values
16:52 < Zelgadis> There should be a different approach of handling such cases
16:54 < krish> my animation has least i guess
16:54 < krish> about 200+ views?
16:54 < krish> oh 868 views
16:55 < krish> no 272 views
16:58 < genete> Zelgadis: I don't see a better solution than Inkscape. I just would be happy if I can select rounded corners for split tangents in Synfig. :)
16:59 < genete> ttyl
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17:48 < krish> howd you do a manga style smooth cartoon in synfig?
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17:48 < krish> the characters have to be drawn on other editors like inkscape isnt it?
17:49 < rore> many people draw them directly in synfig
17:49 < Zelgadis> krish: You mean smooth motion?
17:49 < krish> yes
17:49 < krish> Zelgadis: i am wondering if someone wants to do an animation like Jake Long
17:49 < Zelgadis> krish: Yes, keyframes are drawn in other editors, but not Inkscape
17:50 < krish> then would it be cut out animation?
17:50 < krish> Zelgadis: like?
17:50 < Zelgadis> Because drawing in inkscape is almost like drawing in synfig - iе шы вщгиду цщкл ерут :_:
17:50 < krish> sorry what are those characters!
17:50 < Zelgadis>  Because drawing in inkscape is almost like drawing in synfig - it is double work then :_:
17:50 < Zelgadis> Wrong layout ^_^'''
17:51 < Zelgadis> No, not cutout
17:51 < krish> Zelgadis: then some free style keyframes drawing tool
17:51 < Zelgadis> yep
17:51 < krish> like if I drew a freestyle character running with 10 keyframes in pencil
17:51 < Zelgadis> After that keyframes are traced in synfig
17:52 < krish> so all coloring and background have to be done in pencil?
17:52 < Zelgadis> Well, we prefer do coloring in synfig - it's much more flexible
17:52 < Zelgadis> And, before drawing keyframes we are making animatic first - with synfig
17:53 < krish> Zelgadis: is there a wiki page on how keyframes can be traced into synfig?
17:53 < Zelgadis> See this: http://morevnaproject.org/wiki/Scenes/Demo/19
17:53 < Zelgadis> Wiki page? no
17:53 < Zelgadis> Wait
17:53 < Zelgadis> there is
17:53 < krish> some documentation :)
17:54 < prochefquattro> ah
17:54 < prochefquattro> hi
17:54 < Zelgadis> There's nothing special - just import keyframes at appropriate times in synfig. Then reconstruct picture with blines over imported image
17:54 < Zelgadis> Hi, prochefquattro!
17:54 < prochefquattro> Zelgadis: :)
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17:55 < Zelgadis> krish: http://synfig.org/Walk_Cycle
17:55 < krish> Zelgadis: okay i 'll give a try thanks :)
17:56 < Zelgadis> krish: Example of animation constructed from 4 keyframes: http://zelgadis.profusehost.net/files/morevna/synfig/eyes.zip
17:57 < Zelgadis> prochefquattro: How are you?
17:57 < prochefquattro> Zelgadis: good, working on some wikipedia pages
17:58 < krish> Zelgadis: do you have facebook?
17:58 < prochefquattro> tomorrow i'll check contribution page
17:58 < prochefquattro> arrange thing into places.
17:58 < Zelgadis> prochefquattro: ok
17:58 < Zelgadis> krish: no
17:58 < krish> hmm okay
17:58 < krish> let me upload the image elsewhere then
17:59 < krish> Zelgadis: http://picasaweb.google.com/das.srikrishna/Other#5300841261955038898
18:00 < krish> one of the characters of my comic book ^
18:00 < krish> I want to make animation on the same.. with same comic quality
18:04 < krish> Zelgadis: I bet morenva project is way way too tough than that :)
18:05 < Zelgadis> Front view of running character always was hard for me ^_^
18:07 < krish> :)
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18:08 < krish> for me too. i had to stand in the same postion before the mirror and sketch quickly on paper
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18:08 < pixelgeek> moin all!
18:08 < Zelgadis> morning, pixelgeek!
18:09 < pixelgeek> Or maybe - Moin toute le monde?
18:09 < pixelgeek> hey Zelgadis 
18:09 < pixelgeek> Is ther weather warming up at all where you are?
18:10 < Zelgadis> krish: That's the funny part - when you become watching yourself in the mirror to catch something about drawing/animation people starting to suspect what you're suffering from narcissism.
18:10 < Zelgadis> pixelgeek: Oh, no, it's 30C today
18:10 < Zelgadis> still ^_&
18:10 < krish> Zelgadis: :P
18:10 < pixelgeek> 30C?  or F?
18:10 < Zelgadis> -30C
18:11 < pixelgeek> Ah - big difference!
18:11 < pixelgeek> Brrrrrrrrrr
18:12 < Zelgadis> krish: BTW, usage of synfig for coloring is amazing.
18:12 < Zelgadis> You can change hair color of the main character in whole movie with a single click!
18:13 < krish> oh thats good
18:13 < Zelgadis> Or a skin color. Or an eyes color...
18:13 < Zelgadis> Morevna Project Ubuntu Edition, nya?
18:13 < krish> but most of the times we split the animation into scenes isnt it
18:13 < krish> then each scene is different sifz file. so how come?
18:14 < Zelgadis> krish: Still, you can. even if animation is  splitted
18:14 < krish> how is it so
18:14 < Zelgadis> Cause synfig can reuse exported values from external files
18:14 < krish> oh
18:14 < krish> nice
18:14 < Zelgadis> Just store key colors in separate file
18:17 < creek23> yey! some people talking on this channel again. :)
18:18 < Zelgadis> Hey, creek23.
18:18 < krish> hey creek23
18:18 < krish> I think we should all do a movie 
18:18 < Zelgadis> krish: ...so even if you have frame-by-frame animation it worths to re-trace it with synfig to get the flexibility and resolution independence ;)
18:19 < krish> pretty fast.. like blender foundation releases time to time
18:19 < krish> Zelgadis: yeah i get the idea now. gotta try it practically though
18:19 < Zelgadis> Well, I'm doing it right now. ^_^
18:19 < Zelgadis> But not fast. ^___^
18:20 < Zelgadis> krish: and consider, what producing of 2D art generally tooks more time than producing 3D art
18:21 < creek23> krish: make a collaborative movie?
18:21 < Zelgadis> make a collaborative movie? Join Morevna Project! ^____^
18:21 < creek23> Zelgadis: perhaps a smaller movie. :)
18:22 < creek23> like to be done in a month or less.
18:22 < Zelgadis> creek23: Well 3-min Demo is not much isn't it?
18:22 < krish> yes smaller movie
18:22 < Zelgadis> What could be smaller?
18:22 < krish> 30 minute
18:22 < krish> 20 minute atlest
18:22 < krish> with a story
18:22 < creek23> is Morevna a 3-min movie?
18:23 < creek23> 10min could be an acceptable small movie.
18:23 < Zelgadis> The morevna project demo we currently working on is a 3-min standalone movie.
18:23 < Zelgadis> Movie-clip to be more exact.
18:36 < Zelgadis> BTW, Yaco and genete did Cut The Circle short in a month IIRC
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21:57 < genete> hi there
21:57 < Yoyobuae> hi
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21:57 < Bombe> Hmm, I have a compiler error when making "check" in ETL.
21:58 < Bombe> Oh, hi, btw.
21:58 < Uiomae> hi!
21:58 < genete> hi Bombe
21:58 < genete> Hi Uiomae
21:58 < Yoyobuae> hello
21:58 < Uiomae> hi genete
21:58 < Uiomae> hi Yoyobuae
22:00 < Bombe> Wow, cleaning and recompiling changes quite some things.
22:00  * Bombe is being depressed now.
22:00 < Yoyobuae> Uiomae: anyway, what i was talking with genete is that maybe synfig would benefit from having multiple "objects"
22:00 < Uiomae> objects?
22:00 < Yoyobuae> one layer then has several child objects (circle, rectangles, outlines, regions, etc)
22:01 < Yoyobuae> object is anything that can be represented as vectors
22:01 < Uiomae> can't you do that already with grouped layers?
22:01 < Yoyobuae> let me explain a bit
22:02 < Uiomae> please :)
22:02 < Yoyobuae> synfig works like this:
22:02 < Yoyobuae> valuenodes -> layers -> blend method ->output
22:03 < Yoyobuae> valuenodes are entirely in the "vector" world
22:03 < Yoyobuae> "blending" is in raster world
22:03 < Yoyobuae> layer is the interface between the two
22:03 < Uiomae> yes
22:04 < Yoyobuae> but currently a layer is partly representing "objects"
22:04 < Yoyobuae> Circle layer, Rectangle layer, etc
22:04 < Yoyobuae> the idea is to take that task away from layers, and put it into the new "objects"
22:05 < Yoyobuae> this "objects" are entirely in "vector" world
22:05 < Uiomae> so do you mean doing something more like inkscape
22:06 < Yoyobuae> something more like pretty much every other program that does vector stuff
22:06 < Uiomae> yes
22:07 < Uiomae> unfortunately, I think that's a very big change
22:08 < Yoyobuae> yes, it is xD
22:08 < Uiomae> :P
22:08 < Yoyobuae> but a really *good* change
22:08 < Uiomae> you should really talk with dooglus and pabs
22:08 < Yoyobuae> think what would it do for your opengl rendering
22:09 < Uiomae> what do you mean?
22:09 < Yoyobuae> you could render a whole bunch of objects at once
22:09 < Yoyobuae> instead of render ONE, then blend that with the other layer, which it rendered ONE object before
22:10 < Uiomae> I'm currently changing some things to render all at once if composite blending is used
22:10 < Uiomae> but, yes, it will be an optimization if more blending types are used
22:11 < Uiomae> but aside from that and the fact that every program out there uses that "interface", do you have other advantages over the current model?
22:11 < Yoyobuae> of course :P
22:12 < Yoyobuae> this "objects" could be manipulated in new ways 
22:12 < Yoyobuae> for example boolean operations for regions
22:13 < Yoyobuae> the bones (being developed) could be objects, instead of valuenodes
22:13 < Uiomae> boolean oerations could already be implemented in the current way, I think
22:13 < Uiomae> just select more than one, and do the operations
22:13 < Yoyobuae> yes, but that wouldn't be "animatable"
22:14 < Yoyobuae> take two circles, animate them so they move towards each other, then calculate the UNION of the regions
22:14 < Uiomae> yes, maybe not
22:16 < Yoyobuae> well, this all sounds nice in paper, but now i need to see how it would work in the code xD
22:17 < Yoyobuae> at least get an idea of how big a change it is too xD
22:17 < Uiomae> I promise you it'll be VERY big xDD
22:17 < Yoyobuae> yeah, i been thru synfig's code
22:18 < Yoyobuae> it's a bit worrying XD
22:18 < Yoyobuae> but its better to try and fail, than to not try at all
22:18 < Uiomae> true
22:19 < Uiomae> but before starting, I think you should talk to dooglus and pabs
22:21 < Yoyobuae> yeah, of course
22:21 < Uiomae> I think it's a good idea, but also think of the people who already use synfig
22:22 < Uiomae> a change like this it's a very big one
22:22 < Uiomae> I know they aren't hundreds, but...
22:23 < Yoyobuae> maybe it would be possible to do some automatic conversion
22:24 < Uiomae> yeah, I don't mean about their files, but the new way to work
22:25 < Yoyobuae> well, yeah
22:25 < Uiomae> automatic conversion it's relatively easy
22:25 < Yoyobuae> the interface would need to be similar
22:26 < Uiomae> yeah, but if you introduce a new object type, and change the concept of layers, all will be different
22:26 < Yoyobuae> in many cases an object would replace a layer
22:27 < Uiomae> yes
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22:45 < genete> ups! long phone conversation. Reading the logs :)
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22:49 < genete> it is mostly the way Anime Studio works
22:58 < Yoyobuae> yes, but i think we can add some synfig goodies to the concept
22:59 < Yoyobuae> for example if we have objects that can have child objects of their own
23:00 < Yoyobuae> then the parent object could define a composition of the child object, like boolean operation for regions
23:01 < Yoyobuae> or a bone system object, that animates it's child objects using bones
23:02 < Yoyobuae> all of which is animatable (the object's parameters are valuenodes after all)
23:06 < genete> current bone system allow a bone affect any object in any layer in any position regardless the bone position. Turning it to an object would limit that?
23:07 < genete> because bone influence will be the scope of the object, isn't it?
23:10 < Yoyobuae> unless objects are linkable =D
23:12 < Yoyobuae> objects are in "vector" world like valuenodes
23:13 < Yoyobuae> so some of the concepts that apply to valuenodes may also apply to objects
23:16 < genete> very big change yes! :)
23:19 < Yoyobuae> hehe, but don't you like what you're seeing :D
23:19 < Yoyobuae> ?
23:22 -!- xerakko [n=Miguel@debian/developer/xerakko] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
23:22 < genete> yes but the code change scares me :)
23:22 < Yoyobuae> scares me too
23:23 < Yoyobuae> but we need to be brave for the future generation of synfigers
23:23 < Yoyobuae> :D
23:24 < genete> and the current transformation/distortion layers? how would act over single objects? Some of them work on raster world
23:26 < Yoyobuae> the transformation layers have two functions: transform and reverse_transform (dont remember the actual names)
23:26 < genete> perform and unperform :)
23:27 < Yoyobuae> those functions are used to make ducks work
23:27 < genete> but transform the ducks is not the same than transform the pixels in some cases
23:27 < Yoyobuae> the ducks have X,Y positions on screen, but they control some parameter deep within the layer stack
23:28 < genete> for example inside out only works properly for pixels. You can perform and unperform ducks but the result is meaningless
23:29 < Yoyobuae> let me try
23:29 < genete> think on a circle: it has two ducks (origin and radius) transforming it doesn't transform the circle
23:29 < genete> apply the inside-out layer over a circle  :)
23:29 < genete> s/it/them
23:33 < genete> http://pastebin.com/d5fb8b5b4
23:33 < genete> ups
23:33 < genete> wrong place
23:33 < genete> :)
23:34 < Yoyobuae> nah, it doesn't work
23:35 < Yoyobuae> well, the objects don't have anything to do with tranformation layers
23:36 < Yoyobuae> they go thru rendering first, then get their pixels transformed
23:36 < genete> exactly
23:40 < Uiomae> yes
23:40 < Uiomae> transformations are raster operations
23:40 < Uiomae> with the software renderer
23:40 < Uiomae> with OpenGL it's a different story
23:41 < Yoyobuae> transformations could also be done on "vector" world
23:41 < Yoyobuae> its even easier (and less CPU intensive) than raster transformation
23:41 < Uiomae> yeah, and I think it's the way to go if we finally use that objects
23:42 < Uiomae> yes, just because that
23:43 < genete> that's true for simple transformations (rotate, scale, translate) bur for "complex" ones I think not
23:43 < Yoyobuae> then we don't include "vector" versions of the wacky transformation synfig has ;)
23:46 < genete> ok, suppose you include the basic ones (rotate, translate and zoom)  in the vector world, what would they be? a layer parameter or an object parameter?
23:46 < genete> or just other object?
23:47 < Yoyobuae> another object :)
23:47 < genete> so its effect depends on the position in the object stack, right?
23:48 < Yoyobuae> or maybe let some objects types have child objects
23:48 < Yoyobuae> so they only transform their child objects
23:49 < genete> a rotate object that encapsulates other vector objects, right?
23:49 < Yoyobuae> yup
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 13 00:00:23 2009