--- Log opened Fri Feb 13 00:00:23 2009
00:05 < genete> and if you want to rotate some and translate and rotate others too?
00:07 < genete> current paste canvas layer has a translate feature (origin) and a zoom feature (even with a focus point too). It only needs a rotate angle and origin of rotation to have the thing you want :)
00:09 < Yoyobuae> except is it all done as raster operations =p
00:09 < genete> yes! 
00:10 < genete> improve the raster operations between geometry objects layers would be a good improvement
00:10 < Yoyobuae> raster operations = expensive
00:10 < Yoyobuae> cpu wise
00:11 < Yoyobuae> its better to have a clear separation between raster and vector worlds
00:11 < genete> I agree
00:11 < Yoyobuae> to optimize raster ops between object layers you would need to cross that boundary
00:11 < genete> but the funny distortion layer that synfig has makes that difficult. 
00:12 < Yoyobuae> but why, just operate on the pixels
00:12 < Yoyobuae> the ducks get broken with some transformations
00:13 < Yoyobuae> but  maybe the ducks can be fixed, rather than fixing the layers/objects
00:13 < genete> not for noise distort for example :-/
00:14 < genete> don't think I'm against the idea. Just being conservative
00:16 < genete> I know that zoom, rotate and translate must be done at vector level better than at raster level for geometry objects. But bones are an intermediate solution for that
00:17 < Yoyobuae> we don't need to rush to add these objects to synfig
00:18 < Yoyobuae> but it would be *very* nice to have them at some point in the future
00:18 < genete> sure
00:18 < Yoyobuae> "it opens up many possibilities" :)
00:19  * genete nods
00:19 < genete> but restrict some others :)
00:21 < genete> Yoyobuae: is there any wish list entry for that? It could be a nice idea to fix those concepts in a wiki page
00:21 < Yoyobuae> genete: no, i'll add them in a few
00:22 < Yoyobuae> im heading home from work at the moment
00:22 < Yoyobuae> brb
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00:29 < Bombe> Hmm, what can I use to double the playing speed for a layer?
00:33 < genete> Bombe: encapsulate the layer(s) and
00:33 < genete> convert the Off Set time parameter to linear  
00:34 < Bombe> Ah, yeah, found it already.
00:34 < genete> :)
00:36 < Bombe> I have an animation that loops three times in 10 seconds. If I double playing speed shouldn’t it loop six times in 10 seconds?
00:36 < Bombe> Because it doesn’t loop and I’m worried.
00:37 < Bombe> Damn. A rate of "2f" is not "2s".
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01:38 < Uiomae> hi again, Yoyobuae ;)
01:39 < Yoyobuae> hi Uiomae 
01:43 < Uiomae> are you going to add the objects thing to the wish list?
01:59 < Yoyobuae> yes
02:00 < Yoyobuae> i wanted to make a clear explanation
02:00 < Yoyobuae> so i may take a while =)
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02:12 < Uiomae> Genete and me were talking about other thing that might fix some problems with objects and provide a great boost to productivity
02:12 < Uiomae> using nodes line Blender
02:13 < Uiomae> using nodes like Blender
02:13 < Uiomae> it's better for the effects, so they are not layers or objects
02:14 < Uiomae> but can act on a whole grou or only one object
02:36 < Yoyobuae> im not getting what are the problems with objects
02:36 < Uiomae> not the problems
02:36 < Uiomae> but for example
02:36 < pabs3> would this give us SVG output?
02:37 < Uiomae> how do you apply an effect to only some objects in a layer?
02:37 < Yoyobuae> you split the objects in two layers 
02:37 < Uiomae> that's what I said, but we end up with the same as now
02:38 < Uiomae> pabs3: do you mean by using objects?
02:38 < Yoyobuae> just how many different effects do users plan to use?
02:38 < Uiomae> we don't want to put any limit
02:38 < Yoyobuae> certainly not one different per object
02:38 < Uiomae> but using nodes AND objects, this will be perfect
02:39 < Uiomae> you never know
02:39 < Uiomae> maybe usong a gradient per object, or something like that
02:39 < pabs3> yes
02:39 < Yoyobuae> well, you could always make an arbitrary group of object, with a "Group" object
02:40 < Uiomae> I don't understand
02:40 < Uiomae> grouping it's not the problem
02:40 < Uiomae> but if I have twenty balls, each with their own gradient to shade them
02:40 < Uiomae> I've to use a different gradient for each one
02:40 < Uiomae> you'll have to use a layer for each one
02:41 < Yoyobuae> not if gradients are objects too
02:41 < Uiomae> yeah, but if we make all objects again, we end up with the same thing as we have now
02:41 < Uiomae> adding the grouping thing
02:42 < Yoyobuae> thats more or less the whole idea,
02:42 < Uiomae> I understand
02:42 < Uiomae> but
02:42 < Yoyobuae> the same, but in "vector" world
02:42 < Uiomae> if we use nodes for the effects, we can get the best of both worlds
02:42 < Uiomae> we have layers to group like inkscape
02:43 < Uiomae> we have objects to put in layers
02:43 < Uiomae> but objects are only "solid things"
02:43 < Uiomae> namely, regions, circle and rectangle, for example
02:43 < Uiomae> and the rest of layers (not all, but you get the idea) are effects that you apply through nodes
02:44 < Uiomae> like Blender compositing
02:44 < Yoyobuae> so nodes work mainly on raster data
02:44 < Uiomae> this is a BIGGER change than adding only objects, but if we do a change, better doing it BIG :P
02:44 < Uiomae> yeah, nodes have one or more inputs
02:44 < Uiomae> and one output
02:45 < Uiomae> layers and objects are nodes too
02:45 < Yoyobuae> objects shouldn't be nodes
02:45 < Uiomae> layers and objects only have outputs 
02:45 < Uiomae> why?
02:45 < Yoyobuae> objects are only vectors
02:45 < Uiomae> this way you could apply effects on one object only, or in the whole layer
02:46 < Yoyobuae> they first need to render them
02:46 < Uiomae> but that ddoesn't matter
02:46 < Yoyobuae> layer = renderer
02:46 < Uiomae> ok
02:46 < Yoyobuae> oh well, i guess they could be rendered automatically when needed
02:47 < Uiomae> using an output from a layer or object should make it render
02:47 < Uiomae> so if you have an output from a circle object and that output goes to the input of a blur layer, and that output to the special object compositing or something like this
02:48 < Uiomae> you render the circle at his output, put the raster result to the blur effect, and the result goes to the whole composition
02:48 < Uiomae> don't know if you get my idea
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02:48 < Uiomae> hi Yaco!
02:48 < Yaco> hi Uiomae 
02:48 < Yaco> new user?
02:49 < Uiomae> yes :)
02:49 < Uiomae> I'm porting Synfig to use OpenGL
02:49 < Yoyobuae> Uiomae: just dont know in what situation one would want so many "different" effects applied to each object
02:50 < Yaco> wow Uiomae 
02:50 < Yaco> great
02:50 < Yaco> a really valuable new user :-)
02:50 < Uiomae> if you want, you could take a look at the git repo or in the forum, there is a post
02:50 < Uiomae> yoyobuae: I don't know about every situation, so that's why I don't want to limit anything
02:51 < Uiomae> but using only layers for rendering it's also ok 
02:51 < Yoyobuae> but we dont limit anything, if the user make one object per le
02:51 < Yoyobuae> layer were back to current synfig
02:51 < Uiomae> yeah
02:52 < Uiomae> I only wanted to avoid using a whole layer for only one object
02:52 < Uiomae> but it's ok
02:52 < Yoyobuae> the ideal would be to reduce using too many layers
02:53 < Uiomae> yes
02:53 < Yoyobuae> each layer adds another blending step
02:53 < Uiomae> that would speed up rendering, as you said
02:53 < Uiomae> yeah
02:53 < Uiomae> currently with OpenGL composite blending it's not as expensive as it used to be, though
02:54 < Yoyobuae> true
02:54 < Uiomae> that's true also for transformations
02:54 < Uiomae> today we did a little benchmark
02:54 < Uiomae> using 1 rotate layer and a region, 120 images
02:54 < Uiomae> 47 seconds software renderer, 2 seconds OpenGL :P
02:55 < Yoyobuae> nice
02:56 < Uiomae> so, one to many objects per layer, and only layers renderables, then?
02:56 < Yoyobuae> that was what i originally had in mind
02:57 < Uiomae> ok
02:57 < Yoyobuae> if for example we restrict a layer to objects that SVG can reproduce, we could get SVG output
02:57 < Yoyobuae> pabs3: ;)
02:57 < Uiomae> yes
02:58 < Uiomae> and that's just the ones I mentioned, circle, rectangle and regions
02:58 < Uiomae> mainly, regions only
02:58 < Yoyobuae> but doesnt SVG have some gradients 
02:59 < Uiomae> but I think gradients are properties of objects, and not objects themselves...
02:59 < Uiomae> don't really know
02:59 < Uiomae> let me see
03:00 < Uiomae> yes, gradients and patterns are applied over shaped
03:00 < Uiomae> shapes
03:00 < Uiomae> also there is text
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03:00 < Uiomae> hi pixelgeek!
03:05 < pabs3> pixelgeek: any plans for another demo reel?
03:06 < Yoyobuae> maybe he should use the OpenGL render, to cut down rendering times ;)
03:07 < Uiomae> hehehe, unfortunately it isn't finished yet :P
03:07 < Uiomae> unless he only uses regions, circles and rectangles xDD
03:08 < Yoyobuae> hehe
03:22 < Uiomae> ok, gotta go to sleep
03:23 < Uiomae> bye!
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03:47 < Zelgadis> Agrhh... -38 C at the morning - this is way too much! Visiblity range limit: http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1756/1302090834bp0.jpg http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2832/1302090839vy6.jpg http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1262/1302090837lm0.jpg
03:50 < Yoyobuae> -38C, brrrrr
03:50 < Zelgadis> Hey, Yoyobuae 
03:50 < Yoyobuae> hey
03:50 < pabs3> Zelgadis: eep!
03:51 < Zelgadis> hi pabs3... and everyone 
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03:51 < Zelgadis> Yoyobuae: What is the reason to invent objects to synfig? Is it only optimization reason?
03:52 < Zelgadis> I think Layers in synfig are _already_ objects. They just displayed as layers.
03:53 < Yoyobuae> objects also offer a way to process vector shapes before they're rendered
03:53 < Yoyobuae> for example boolean region operations
03:54 < Zelgadis> Animatable boolean operations could be done with current organisation through the use of Onto/Alpha over blend types
03:55 < Yoyobuae> all of the boolean operations?
03:55 < Zelgadis> Union, difference, intersection... - it all could be done
03:56 < Yoyobuae> ok then, now make a shape follow the edge of those regions (animated of course) =D
03:56 < Zelgadis> The concept of layers in synfig is what they are aren't layers at all. They are just stacked objects.
03:57 < Yoyobuae> they're objects, but they're rendered like layers
03:57 < Yoyobuae> combined like layers
03:57 < Zelgadis> I see
03:57 < Yoyobuae> the only reason they work like objects, is that the "object" is embedded into layers
03:58 < Yoyobuae> i just want that object to be a entity of its own
03:59 < Yoyobuae> theres also other more interesting posibilities
04:00 < Yoyobuae> for example calculating a smooth region that follows the edges of a group of objects
04:00 < Zelgadis> outline
04:00 < Zelgadis> ?
04:00 < Yoyobuae> but automatically
04:01 < Yoyobuae> and for many objects at once
04:01 < Zelgadis> yes, I thought about that earlier as a Filter layer...
04:03 < Yoyobuae> i dont understand how a would a Layer achieve the same
04:03 < Zelgadis> Like Shadow layer
04:04 < Zelgadis> But still there will be no possibility for a shape to follow that region...
04:05 < Zelgadis> Still, your proposal is good reason to make a research and understand what are layers and objects in Synfig. And to classify layer filters too. ^_^
04:06 < Zelgadis> gotta go
04:07 < Yoyobuae> ok
04:07 < Yoyobuae> i had a diagram in mind that kinda explains layers and valuenodes in synfig
04:07 < Yoyobuae> ill post it on wiki
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04:11 < Yoyobuae> Zelgadis: If you're still there http://synfig.org/Image:Smooth_silhoutte.sifz
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04:23 < Zelgadis> Yoyobuae: cool
04:23 < Zelgadis> Smooth silhoutte - interesting...
04:26 < Yoyobuae> thats one of the main reasons i see behind objects
04:26 < Yoyobuae> to generate shapes
04:27 < Yoyobuae> by combining other shapes
04:27 < Yoyobuae> or even generating it from scratch (according to some parameters)
04:28 < Yoyobuae> as long as we can find the math and implement it as code
04:29 < Yoyobuae> theres a lot of things that are possible
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04:40 < pixelgeek> Ooops - sorry - chatzilla window got buried.
04:40 < pixelgeek> I wasn't intentionally ignoring everyone, honest!
04:44 < Yoyobuae> hehe, it happen to me too :)
04:44 < Yoyobuae> s/happen/happens/
04:54 < Zelgadis> Yoyobuae: http://zelgadis.profusehost.net/files/synfig/combined-path-follow-2.sifz
04:54 < Zelgadis> A bit complex, but still possible.
04:54 < Zelgadis> I think there is also another way to implement this via Switch convert type.
04:57 < Yoyobuae> i think it's not working on my synfig version
04:57 < Yoyobuae> screenshot?
04:57 < Zelgadis> I have SVN 2316... Which is yours?
04:58 < Yoyobuae> i compile from genete's git branch XD
04:58 < Zelgadis> So yours is newer. File is not opening?
04:58 < Zelgadis> *opens
04:59 < Yoyobuae> it opens but it's not following the path
04:59 < Zelgadis> Agrh... regression?
04:59 < Zelgadis> It should follow all three shapes sequentally
05:00 < Yoyobuae> oh, nvm
05:00 < Yoyobuae> i didnt notice that the green thing was animated
05:01 < Zelgadis> ^_^
05:02 < Yoyobuae> hmm, converted valuenodes
05:02 < Yoyobuae> i didnt see them before
05:03 < Zelgadis> What? I just used Link to BLine function what was brought to synfig by _you_.
05:04 < Yoyobuae> opps, i meant converted waypoints
05:05 < Yoyobuae> hehe, it breaks if you move any shape though ;)
05:06 < Zelgadis> yep. Because offsets not linked to the shape offsets. If I'll link them, then there no problem will be.
05:06 < Zelgadis> I'm just haven't time to do that...
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05:08 < Zelgadis> Though I agree, this setup is not obvious and time consuming. ^_^
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05:09 < Zelgadis> But I prefer to have special BlineBoolean layer type. With parameters:
05:09 < Zelgadis> Type: Union|Intersection|Difference
05:10 < Zelgadis> Bline1: List connected to Bline points
05:10 < Zelgadis> Bline2: List connected to Bline points
05:10 < Yoyobuae> but then you need to conect those
05:10 < Zelgadis> yes
05:11 < Yoyobuae> with objects there would be a Union, Intersection, Difference objects
05:12 < Yoyobuae> whatever object is child of those gets joined, intersected, differenced
05:12 < Zelgadis> intersection - what if there is more than 2 objects?
05:13 < Zelgadis> ooops
05:13 < Zelgadis> I mean difference
05:13 < Yoyobuae> only allow 2 objects
05:13 < Yoyobuae> or maybe substract the rest from the first one
05:13 < Zelgadis> How to choose which object part will remain?
05:13 < Zelgadis> So order matters...
05:14 < Zelgadis> Are objects could be treated as some new type of Paste canvas layer?
05:14 < Yoyobuae> yeah i gues
05:14 < Zelgadis> Maybe it is possible to extend functionality of paste canvas layer, so it could porduce other shapes from child ones?
05:15 < Zelgadis> Imagine, you could make paste canvas act as Boolean or smooth shape, or just an ordinary paste canvas...
05:15 < Yoyobuae> the current canvas layer doesnt know/care whats inside of it
05:16 < Zelgadis> Yes. It is just encapsulates.
05:16 < Zelgadis> but what if?
05:16 < Yoyobuae> it just renders all the layers inside, then "pastes" the result in the the lower layer
05:16 < Yoyobuae> also, paste layers don't restrict what other layers are inside of it
05:17 < Zelgadis> That's why I mentioned  "extend functionality" term. ;)
05:18 < Yoyobuae> more like "replace functionality", i dont think there would be much left of the paste canvas code afterwards
05:18 < Yoyobuae> just the "encapsulate" part
05:18 < Zelgadis> Well, if paste canvas type is set to Boolean, then it's just ignores Images/Text layer inside
05:18 < Zelgadis> ha-ha, replace? Can't argue, I didn't know synfig code. ^__^
05:19 < Yoyobuae> and leave users wondering why their layers aren't rendering xD
05:20 < Zelgadis> Well, it was just a suggestion. I just found myself associating Booleans/SmoothShapes with paste canvas layers
05:20 < Zelgadis> (from UI point of view)
05:20 < Yoyobuae> the current layers and the objects i propose share a lot in common
05:21 < Yoyobuae> so i can see why you did that association
05:21 < Yoyobuae> the thing is that layers already do too much
05:23 < Yoyobuae> and everything they do inevitably leads to rasterizing
05:23 < Yoyobuae> which gets rid of any vector information, and all that's left are pixels
05:24 < Zelgadis> Ok, I have to go. It was nice to talk with you, Yoyobuae. Good luck!
05:24 < Yoyobuae> bye
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09:35 < Bombe> Good morning.
10:02 < rore> 'morning! 
10:03 < Bombe> Hey, rore.
10:25 < Bombe> How can I link subparameters from different layers? I have a layer with a linear "Amount" parameter, and I want to link that Amount parameter to the "Scale" parameter in multiple layers, and to a different "Scale" parameter in a couple of other layers. Is that possible?
10:26 < rore> yep
10:26 < Bombe> Cool. How?
10:27 < rore> Select that "amount" parameter, right-click on it an choose export. Give it a name you'll remember
10:27 < rore> then select it in the "Child" dialog (should be the one just "under" the param dialog)
10:28 < rore> go back to the param dialog, select your other layer, and the parameter you want, right-click > Connect. It will link the selected exported param (from the Child dialog) to the param you just right-clicked
10:29 < Bombe> Thank you. :)
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10:38 < genete> Bombe: other thing is that the meaning of 'Amount' and the meaning of 'Scale' were the same. If not, you can always make them equivalent using another proper convert type
10:38 < genete> hi all
10:38 < pixelbot> Hello genete
10:39 < rore> Hehehe, that bot. Bot in boot. (hu, what am I saying?) 
10:39 < rore> 'morning genete 
10:39 < genete> moin moin
10:39 < genete> ;)
10:40 < rore> hehehe :)
10:43 < genete> rore: did you read the logs of yesterday evening and night late?
10:43 < rore> no 
10:44 < genete> Yoyobuae porposed a long term change (big change)
10:44 < rore> the huge logs between ~22:00 and 5:00 ? :D
10:44 < genete> yep
10:44 < rore> hmmm, ok, I'll read it then 
10:45 < genete> apart of that uiomae mentioned that speed improvement was about 20 times faster with opengl than software render in a quick test I did yesterday in my computer
10:46 < genete> I was shocked!
10:46 < genete> it was for the rotation layer only, imagine when blurs were implemented
10:47 < genete> synfig rotation layer is extremly slow!
10:48 < rore> 20 times? wow, great 
10:48  * rore sends chocolates to uiomae :D
10:49 < genete> 120 frames (480x270) with a single star layer rotated/translated/zoomed takes 47 seconds to render in CLI and 2 in CLI with opengl
10:52 < rore> nice! 
10:55 < rore> I just read a little part of the log, I'm not sure what kind of improvement it will be to the user (well - concept sounds nice, but a little "abstract" from a user point of view ;) )
10:55  * rore keeps reading
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11:29 < rore> I'll wait to see a wiki page with the pro and cons of that :p Because at the moment I really don't see what difference it'll make for the user (and i'm not talking about speed, just what's on the screen)
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12:33 < Bombe> I just read the beginning of the discussion but I’m not really sure what the difference is supposed to be between the layers as they are now and the objects Yoyobuae wants to introduce.
12:51 < genete> Bombe: the main benefits are less pixel based computation and more vector computation posibilities. Speed and new features. 
12:51 < Bombe> Ah... so the plan is to simply decouple the rendering from the layers/objects?
12:52 < genete> But I don't see really user interface benefits. It would need deeper description/discussion
12:53 < Bombe> It doesn’t have to reach the user interface, I think... layers that need a pixel-based presentation could perform the rendering implicitely, I guess.
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15:25 < Bombe> Is there an easy way to move _all_ keyframes after 5s 2s into the future?
15:43 < Zelgadis> Bombe: No
15:57 < Yoyobuae> Zelgadis: http://www.synfig.org/How_Synfig_Works
15:58 < Yoyobuae> i wrote a small explanation about how valuenode, layers, etc work internally
16:03 < Zelgadis> Yoyobuae: Cool! That's very useful info!
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16:21 < rore> Yoyobuae: nice. Usefull stuff (even if I'm not a coder, I'm curious )
16:27 < Yoyobuae> i kinda need that explanation for my "object" idea =)
16:27 < Yoyobuae> i'll post a page about it later
17:03 < CIA-47> synfig: gballintijn * r2341 /synfig-studio/trunk/src/synfigapp/action.h: 
17:03 < CIA-47> synfig: Fix the "Detailed Description" comment to allow Doxygen to generate
17:03 < CIA-47> synfig: proper HTML.
17:04 < Zelgadis> Who is the gballintijn?
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17:08 < CIA-47> synfig: gballintijn * r2342 /synfig-studio/trunk/ (. doc/): 
17:08 < CIA-47> synfig: Let Subversion ignore files and directories generated by the Doxygen
17:08 < CIA-47> synfig: html target.
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17:21 < Zelgadis> Hi, Uiomae!
17:22 < Zelgadis> It's amazing progress on the GL renderer!
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17:24 < Uiomae> hi Zelgadis
17:24 < Uiomae> thanks :)
17:24 < Zelgadis> Thank you for great efforts!
17:24 < Uiomae> I've already implemented regions and transformation layers
17:24 < Uiomae> but I haven't posted any images
17:25 -!- Zelgadis is now known as L-gadis
17:25 < Uiomae> you're welcome ;)
17:25 < Uiomae> also, antialiasing works now, but I have a little problem with it, it's WIP really :P
17:25 -!- L-gadis is now known as Zelgadis
17:25 < Zelgadis> Cool!
17:28 < Uiomae> :)
17:35 < Uiomae> what do you think about Yoyobuae idea of objects?
17:37 < Zelgadis> We discussed it this morning.
17:37 < Zelgadis> It is interesting idea. But for me changes are too radical.
17:38 < Uiomae> yeah, but I've always said
17:38 < Uiomae> if you've to change anything
17:38 < Uiomae> make the change BIG xDD
17:40 < Uiomae> I suggested using also nodes with the objects
17:40 < Uiomae> like blender compositing
17:40 < Uiomae> do you know what I mean?
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17:43 < Zelgadis> yes
17:43 < Zelgadis> I know
17:44 < Uiomae> I think it's good to have something like that
17:44 < Uiomae> all the filters or effects could be nodes instead of layers
17:45 < Uiomae> if you apply lot of effects right now the timeline gets a bit cluttered
17:45 < Uiomae> if you use nodes things are a bit better organized
17:45 < CIA-47> synfig: gballintijn * r2343 /synfig-studio/trunk/src/gtkmm/widget_curves.cpp: 
17:45 < CIA-47> synfig: #2574520: Complete the fix in r2033.
17:45 < CIA-47> synfig: Add the rest of the types of value nodes that should be ignored by the
17:45 < CIA-47> synfig: curves panel. This patch extends r2033, which fixes issue #2060732.
17:46 < Uiomae> and I think nodes are a bit more powerful
17:46 < Uiomae> but change then will be more bigger :P
17:47 < Zelgadis> Well, I'm not sure about nodes
17:49 < Uiomae> what do you think about them
17:50 < Zelgadis> I don't see any problems with lots of effects and timeline
17:52 < Uiomae> doesn't it get cluttered?
17:52 < Zelgadis> Maybe you mean layers panel, not timeline?
17:52 < Uiomae> maybe
17:52 < Uiomae> sorry, I haven't touched the studio in a while :P
17:53 < Uiomae> I'm only working at the core with the cli
17:53 < Zelgadis> I understand ^_^
17:53 < Uiomae> what I say is that you only have to deal with objects when animating, and later do the composition and apply effects
17:54 < Uiomae> I don't need to see a gradient layer when I'm working on the objects below
17:54 < Uiomae> for example
17:55 < Uiomae> well, maybe I can explain myself better when I come back to the studio :)
17:55 < Zelgadis> Uiomae: sometimes you should apply effects only to particular group of layers. That's where layers are handy.
17:57 < Zelgadis> And I prefer to have compound layers like PasteCanvas for boolean operations.
18:04 < Uiomae> with nodes you could do absolutely the same
18:04 < Uiomae> take the output for the layers you want to apply the effect, and made them the input of the effect you want
18:06 < Uiomae> also, I mean mixing the nodes idea with the Yoyobuae one
18:06 < Uiomae> using layers, objects and nodes
18:06 < Uiomae> just like Blender or Inkscape
18:06 < Zelgadis> Still blender nodes often hard-readable for me. Maybe I'm wrong.
18:07 < Uiomae> hard-readable?
18:07 < Zelgadis> From UI point of view
18:07 < Uiomae> well, don't remember right now how Belnder uses nodes, but what I have in mind it's certainly not unreadable
18:08 < Uiomae> think of a box, the name of the effect, inputs in the top, outputs at the bottom, and that's it
18:08 < Uiomae> you always know how effects are applied
18:15 < Zelgadis> Yes I know, But node compositions like this always confused me: http://www.ekakiya.jp/ehp/1791.jpg
18:15 < Zelgadis> (Not sure it will look simplier with current synfig concept, though ^__^)
18:17 < Uiomae> it doesn't have to be so complex
18:18 < Uiomae> I was thinking more like ToonBoom Digital PRO
18:18 < Uiomae> http://www.toonboom.com/img/products/digitalpro/tips_rackfocus-03.jpg
18:19 < Uiomae> sorry for the little size, but I don't seem to find anything bigger :P
18:21 < Zelgadis> Still currently I can't imagine solid UI concept with objects-layers-nodes + animation structure. The current synfig power is what it is provides solid layers concept - you could access everything by manipulating layers and their parameters. As soon as you grabbing it, it's easy to learn it.
18:22 < Zelgadis> I think currently one thing should be separated from layers - bones.
18:23 < Uiomae> I don't know how bones work right now
18:24 < Zelgadis> Representing bones like layers is considered as cheating
18:24 < Uiomae> considered by who?
18:25 < Yoyobuae> the bones genete is working on uses valuenodes rather than layers
18:25 < Zelgadis> I suggesting to add separate Bones panel. Not sure what others think about that.
18:26 < Zelgadis> (considered)-> darco mentioned that. I agree.
18:26 < Zelgadis> darc is an original developer.
18:26 < Zelgadis> *darco
18:26 < Uiomae> yeah, I know
18:26 < Uiomae> Genete told me
18:26 < Uiomae> and I've been reading a bit the web
18:26 < Uiomae> :P
18:26 < Yoyobuae> i personally think bones could just as easily be objects
18:26 < Uiomae> heheheh
18:27 < Zelgadis> Bones as layers have nothing to do with layers
18:27 < Zelgadis> Hey, Yoyobuae!
18:27 < Yoyobuae> hey
18:27 < Uiomae> and I think bones could be nodes!
18:27 < Uiomae> ajajaja
18:27 < Zelgadis> ^____^
18:27 < Uiomae> nah, just kidding xDD
18:27 < Yoyobuae> bones = vector operation :P
18:28 < Uiomae> yeah, but for me, bones have to do with layers the same as filters
18:28 < Uiomae> mean nothing :P
18:28 < Zelgadis> Yep, and they are not depend on their placement in the layers list.
18:28 < Uiomae> bones have to be an entity on their own, just like ducks
18:29 < Uiomae> I think dooglus did that because it's easier to work at first
18:29 < Zelgadis> Yes
18:29 < Zelgadis> Bones as layers are ad-hoc
18:29 < Uiomae> but way to go it's making a renderer on their own
18:29 < Zelgadis> yep
18:30 < Yoyobuae> huh?
18:30 < Uiomae> I mean a renderer for the studio
18:30 < Uiomae> just like the ducks
18:30 < Uiomae> have a renderer on their own
18:30 < Uiomae> in the core they don't exist, just their coordinates
18:30 < Uiomae> just like bones
18:30 < Zelgadis> Didn't knew that
18:30 < Yoyobuae> if you ask me, duck should use the same renderer as every other shape :)
18:30 < Uiomae> yeah, you can see in the studio
18:31 < Uiomae> currently, ducks, rubberband selections and a few other things uses different code
18:31 < Uiomae> and I think it's good
18:31 < Zelgadis> Uiomae, Yoyobuae: It seems you are trying to define a roadmap?
18:31 < Zelgadis> ^__^
18:31 < Uiomae> :P
18:31 < Uiomae> it's not a bad idea, isn't it?
18:32 < Zelgadis> It's VERY good idea.
18:32 < Yoyobuae> what? defining a roadmap?
18:32 < Uiomae> yeah, I think so
18:33 < Zelgadis> Please consider that page: http://synfig.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1398
18:34 < Zelgadis> Yoyobuae: Yes. You are proposing a change. A big change. So it worth to think about roadmap. Even if it will be personal roadmap. ^__^
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18:36 < Uiomae> but changes as big as those needs some input from the community, before being part of a roadmap :P
18:37 < Zelgadis> yes
18:38 < Zelgadis> For now the only things I personally miss in synfig are listed here: http://synfig.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1414&sid=464b6846df4246aaaa191e90534bcf3d#p1414
18:38 < Zelgadis> And I really grateful what one item from that list you  already work on!
18:39 < Zelgadis> I'm so happy!
18:40 < Uiomae> do you mean the OpenGL renderer?
18:40 < Zelgadis> Yes!
18:40 < Zelgadis> Speedup!
18:40 < Uiomae> jajaja
18:40 < Uiomae> I'm doing to do a hack so you will not be able to use it!
18:41 < Uiomae> if (user==Zelgadis) broke!
18:41 < Uiomae> xDDD
18:41 < Zelgadis> HaHaha!!! 
18:41 < Uiomae> well, saving all from Morevna project, of course
18:41 < Zelgadis> You pushing me to learn to read c code!
18:41 < Uiomae> if (user == Zelgadis) send all work of morevna to uiomake, then Broke!!
18:42 < Uiomae> yeah, it's a good way, don't you think?
18:42 < Uiomae> xD
18:42 < Zelgadis> well, It's not a probblem to get all morevna work even without if. ~_^
18:43 < Uiomae> jeje
18:43 < Uiomae> great, so just forget the if
18:43 < Uiomae> direct broke xDD
18:43 < Zelgadis> ^_^
18:44 -!- Zelgadis is now known as L-gadis
18:44 < L-gadis> Ha-ha!!!!
18:44 < Uiomae> :P
18:46 < L-gadis> Well I just listed the things what making my animator-life harder. Synfig is already useful for animation. For me those items will make it comfortable. ^_^
18:46 < Uiomae> I see
18:47 < L-gadis> To be honest, there are only half of them really important
18:47 < Uiomae> I think the thin line bug it's also fixed with OpenGL
18:47 < Uiomae> do you have a test file?
18:47 < L-gadis> Moment, it's easy to produce one.
18:47 < Uiomae> ok
18:47 < Uiomae> use only regions if you can
18:48 < L-gadis> It is related to regions only ^_^
18:48 < Uiomae> great :P
18:48 < Uiomae> I though the same would happen with rectangles as well
18:50 < L-gadis> http://filebin.ca/htwgae/thin-line-bug.sifz
18:52 < Uiomae> no, sorry, still the same
18:53 < Uiomae> using objects will help to solve the bug xDD
18:53 < Uiomae> because currently, every layer have to be blended
18:53 < Uiomae> and antialiased
18:53 < Uiomae> there is no way around it
18:53 < Uiomae> but I don't know, can't you just use one object instead of two?
18:54 < Yoyobuae> "Object Union" =)
18:55 < Uiomae> yeah, that's why I said about the objects
18:55 < Uiomae> but currently isn't a bug
18:55 < Uiomae> it's the way it's supposed to work
18:56 < Uiomae> can be fixed but with an ugly hack
19:01 < L-gadis> interesting
19:03 < L-gadis> Yoyobuae: How do you imagine the UI for objects?
19:03 < L-gadis> Are they appear like layers in the list?
19:06 < L-gadis> OK, OK, waiting for wiki page ^_^
19:06 < Uiomae> xDD
19:11 < Yoyobuae> yeah, they show up in layers panel and parameters panel show their parameters
19:12 < Yoyobuae> L-gadis: for objects that compose, they encapsulate the objects they operate on
19:17 < Yoyobuae> also, at first i wanted to restrict objects to exist only inside a layer capable of rendering them
19:18 < L-gadis> Hmmm... so from the users point of view changes will be minimal
19:18 < Yoyobuae> yeah, that's the idea
19:18 < L-gadis> You just classify some layers as layers and some as objects
19:19 < Yoyobuae> objects are something completely different
19:19 < Yoyobuae> they're not layers at all
19:19 < Yoyobuae> but that's just semantics =)
19:20 < L-gadis> Yep. So Bline is object. PasteCanvas is a layer (visualizer). So bline should always reside inside of visualizer. That's the main change.
19:20 < Yoyobuae> yeah, something like that
19:20 < L-gadis> Well it looks reasonable!
19:20 < Yoyobuae> but maybe it would be possible to make that paste canvas layer automatic
19:20 < Yoyobuae> and hidden also
19:21 < Yoyobuae> whenever you have a list of objects one on top another, such a hidden layer is inserted to contain them
19:22 < Yoyobuae> like that, the changes to interface are zero
19:22 < L-gadis> Well, the only case when hidden layer needed is when the object is NOT inside of any PasteCanvas layer.
19:22 < L-gadis> So we could consider existence of the Main Layer - which is canvas (in synfig terms).
19:23 < Yoyobuae> actually whenever you put a non-object on top of an object, rendering is required
19:23 < Yoyobuae> thus a layer needs to be in between
19:23 < L-gadis> ah
19:24 < L-gadis> but non-object could be treated as image object
19:24 < L-gadis> so it is object too
19:24 < L-gadis> or i'm confusing concepts?
19:24 < Yoyobuae> its a problem of vector vs raster world
19:25 < Yoyobuae> objects are purely vectorial
19:25 < Yoyobuae> if we want to do things like calculate the union of objects, we cant allow raster stuff in it
19:25 < L-gadis> Why not?
19:26 < L-gadis> Raster stuff is just like image.
19:26 < L-gadis> image is an rectangle with a raster data inside.
19:26 < Yoyobuae> so if you have an image of a circle, its region would be a square?
19:27 < L-gadis> Yep. With an alpha.
19:27 < L-gadis> Ah... I forgot about blend mode.
19:27 < L-gadis> Forget it.
19:28 < Yoyobuae> remember, its better to keep vector and raster seperate
19:28 < Yoyobuae> =)
19:28 < L-gadis> OK
19:29 < L-gadis> For now I prefer not to keep layers hidden
19:30 < L-gadis> if we creating bline, the layer is automaticaly created
19:31 < L-gadis> It starting to look more and more interesting...
19:31 < Yoyobuae> yeah, the idea needs polishing
19:32 < Yoyobuae> bleh, i need to do that wiki page, and get some discussion going, but im at work
19:32 < Yoyobuae> already taking too much time off it xD
19:35 < L-gadis> bedtime here
19:35 < L-gadis> night!
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20:57  * Bombe just merged his UI changes from March 2006 into current trunk.
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23:28 < Uiomae> people, please be quiet!
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--- Log closed Sat Feb 14 00:00:29 2009