--- Log opened Mon Mar 16 00:00:54 2009
01:45 < CIA-47> MorevnaProject: Carlos Lopez master * re7b69389dac1 demo/21/ (21-composition.sif 21.sif): 21: Traced canvas d09
01:45 < CIA-47> MorevnaProject: Carlos Lopez master * r2a248ef18078 demo/21/21-composition.sif: 22: canvas d11, WIP
01:45 < CIA-47> MorevnaProject: Carlos Lopez master * r9c8a3b34603f demo/21/21-composition.sif: 21: Finished canvas d11. Ready for shading
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10:28 < genete> !quote
10:28 < pixelbot> My 2D Vector Animation program has HDRI - does yours?
10:55 < rore> 'llo 
10:55 < rore> !quote
10:55 < pixelbot> Synfig: tracking Blines since 2007
10:55 < genete> hi rore 
10:55 < rore> hi genete 
10:55 < rore> I want a funnier quooooote 
10:55 < rore> !quote
10:55 < pixelbot> Synfig: Save early, save often!
10:55 < rore> !quote
10:55 < pixelbot> 2007-9-19-07:53 * dooglus just got an early morning "have you seen the car keys" wake up
10:55 < rore> bah, I give up
10:56 < genete> !quote me, please
10:56 < pixelbot> 15:58 < genete> what would happen if you tells pixelbot to quote this: "!quote"
10:56 < genete> ha!
10:56 < genete> !quote funny please ;)
10:56 < pixelbot> 2008-05-01-03:40 < pixelgeek> Hi! I'm Sy! I've detected that you're trying to draw a bline! Maybe I can help?
11:01 < rore> hehehhe, and that works, woohoo
11:05 < genete> !quote rore PLEASE!
11:05 < pixelbot> 2007-9-19-07:53 * dooglus just got an early morning "have you seen the car keys" wake up
11:05 < genete> blew! 
11:06 < rore> !quote me me me meeeee
11:06 < pixelbot> Dooglus - There were a few bits of code left over, so I just put them in a drawer
11:06 < genete> pixelbot sudo make randomize quotes!
11:06 < rore> hehe :) 
11:06 < genete> pixelbot sudo make me randomize quotes!
11:06  * genete kick pixelbot
11:07  * genete kicks pixelbot
11:07 < pixelbot> Ow!
11:07 < genete> pixelbot: sudo make me randomize quotes!
11:07 < pixelbot> Coming right up!
11:07 < genete> oh, it only works with ':'
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12:16 < genete> In file manager, when I want to place some files inside a new folder I usually often select them all, right click and look for the "Encapsulate" context menu entry...
12:48 < rore> hehehe :) 
12:48  * rore encapsulates genete with a computer and synfig 
12:51 < genete> please, encapsulate an internet connection too :)
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14:26 < genete> hello nikitakit 
14:44 < nikitakit> ... hello
14:44 < nikitakit> why do I always miss these messages???
14:44 < genete> hi, just wanted to comment some things about the traced Ivan
14:44 < genete> and Morevna too
14:45 < genete> I see a hole at Ivan's jacket. Maybe you didn't notice but there is. Uncheck the background and you'l see it
14:45 < nikitakit> You mean on the left side? (Ivan's left)
14:46 < genete> yes
14:46 < genete> over the leg
14:46 < genete> and regarding to Morevna's cranium size I think it should be a little bigger. Also the connection with the neck should be smooth, not a peak corner
14:46 < nikitakit> ok
14:46 < nikitakit> as for Ivan, I'm not done tracing him yet
14:47 < genete> other issue I see is the way you group the shapes of the jacket.
14:47 < nikitakit> The lines are somehow confusing me, so I left them for later
14:47 < genete> yes
14:47 < nikitakit> What's the problem with the jacket?
14:47 < genete> I think that you should subdivide it less. 
14:47 < genete> because later when you apply the shadows you'll have troubles
14:48 < genete> you have to consider how to apply shadows too, when define what shapes overlap on the jacket
14:48 < nikitakit> unfortunately I can't check my actual file right now... but what's the problem? Isn't it just the jacket and the arm?
14:49 < genete> maybe the shadows should drop in one part of the jacket and not the other.. if they are encapsulated on different paste canvas you can have problems
14:50 < genete> it is juts a general advise. Now, the shapes are really meesed up so I cannot see how to add shadows
14:51 < genete> anyway the last (and only authorized) word comes from Zelgadis
14:51 < genete> he's the director :)
14:51 < nikitakit> OK, I'll look into it... but I can't do that just now
14:51 < genete> me neither =)
14:52 < nikitakit> Wait... for subdivide did you mean too many canvases of BLine regions?
14:53 < nikitakit> * canvases OR Bline regions
14:53 < genete> I mean too many blines AND too many canvases
14:54 < genete> I tend to divide the parts of the clothes logically to the real subdivision
14:54 < genete> if there are non logical divisions later you can have problems
14:54 < genete> for example if you join a piece of neck of the jacket with a piece of the arm it is ilogical IMHO
14:55 < genete> (not the case)
14:55 < nikitakit> Well, Zelgadis suggested that I use more BLine regions...
14:55 < nikitakit> I'll check it out, but I got to go now
14:55 < genete> I don't like that either xDD
14:55 < genete> no problem
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14:56 < genete> I'm just replying your "comments?" in the forum. :) Keep it up
14:56 < genete> oh, late :-
14:56 < genete> :-/
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15:19 < Zelgadis> bah... I'm late
15:19 < Zelgadis> ^___^
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16:04 < genete> hey
16:05 < Zelgadis> Hey, genete!
16:05 < genete> hi Zelgadis 
16:05 < genete> did you see the scene 21 traced?
16:05 < Zelgadis> Yes!
16:05 < Zelgadis> Very good!
16:05 < Zelgadis> And
16:06 < Zelgadis> I agree about your idea with jacket.
16:06 < genete> nikitakit jacket you mean?
16:06 < Zelgadis> No.
16:06 < Zelgadis> About scene 21
16:06 < genete> ah
16:06 < genete> what did I do (well?)?
16:07 < genete> aaah
16:07 < genete> my comment on the forum 
16:07 < genete> yeah
16:07 < Zelgadis> genete: "Once you add the shading I'll add the colors, the variable line width, the shading and maybe some quick hair and jacket movement"
16:07 < Zelgadis> I think no need variable line width there
16:07 < Zelgadis> but quick jacket movement could be a good idea!
16:08 < Zelgadis> I'm sending images from scene 21 to shading.
16:08 < genete> yes, I plan two quick poses (flip/flop)
16:08 < Zelgadis> Should be cool.
16:08 < genete> using a time loop :)
16:09 < genete> cool about the shading
16:09 < genete> who's your shading assistance?
16:09 < Zelgadis> Natalya Neverova.
16:10 < genete> ask her to define shade tones levels if there are more than two
16:10 < Zelgadis> yes, right
16:11 < genete> by for example placing numbers or marks on the one(s) that are the same level
16:11 < Zelgadis> good idea
16:12 < genete> how's LGM travel plan going?
16:12 < Zelgadis> I didn't recieved answer from Lui yet.
16:13 < Zelgadis> That's bad. I need it sooner the better.
16:13 < genete> Lui is the guy that wrote the email inviting synfig?
16:13 < Zelgadis> Because I need them to send me invitation and only after that I could get Visa
16:14 < genete> invitation to LGM?
16:14 < Zelgadis> No. He is the main organizator.
16:14 < Zelgadis> Yes. Official invitation.
16:14 < genete> maybe he's at #lgm?
16:15 < Zelgadis> Hmm... Maybe. But... What's the point not answering e-mail? I suppose he is busy or decision not made yet.
16:16 < genete> maybe it was directed to the spam bucket... sometimes that happen
16:17 < genete> you there too,  hehe
16:17 < Zelgadis> Ah, maybe
16:17 < Zelgadis> Yes, he is there.
16:18 < genete> do you know his nick?
16:18 < Zelgadis> Yes. It seems he is Louis_D.
16:19 < genete> cool
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16:33 < djedai> Hi, genete and  Zelgadis
16:33 < genete> hi djedai 
16:34 < djedai> genete What  you do?
16:35 < genete> contributing to Morevna's as much as I can
16:35 < genete> djedai: how are your English lessons going?
16:36 < djedai> Oh, bad
16:36 < djedai> not time
16:37 < genete> practice is the only recipe... and a good dictionary ;)
16:37 < djedai> I installing Fedora 10 ^__^
16:38 < genete> "I'm installing Fedora 10" better (don't forget the verb to be)
16:39 < djedai> My good practice in channel synfig^__^
16:39 < genete> (if dooglus could read this! genete giving English lessons! lol)
16:40 < Zelgadis> ^___^
16:46 < rore> genete: do you do spanish lessons too? :p
16:46 < genete> rore: I better go back to my encapsulated synfig ... ;)
16:47 < rore> heheh ^^
16:47 < Zelgadis> Zelgadis: My good practice in channel synfig^__^ <---- You not attending your lessons too often then. ~_^
16:47 < rore> encapsulatado synfigo 
16:47  * rore hides
16:48 < genete> rore: yo encapsulo, tu encapsulas, el encapsula, nosotros encapsulamos, vosotros encapsulais, ellos encapsulan :P
16:49 < rore> jejeje :p
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16:50 < rore> genete: ¡te encapsulo! Con wifi y ordenador.
16:51 < genete> merci madamme
16:51 < rore> (madame*)
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17:36 < Yoyobuae> genete: hey
17:38 < genete> hey
17:39 < genete> Yoyobuae: how are your "vector objects" concepts going?
17:39 < Yoyobuae> genete: slowly advancing xD
17:40 < genete> I still waiting your bounce ball entry :P
17:41 < Yoyobuae> yeah, i'll try to get it done in this month =)
17:42 < Yoyobuae> i have been a bit distracted with Lisp
17:42 < Yoyobuae> that programming language is crazy!!
17:43 < Yoyobuae> anyway, i was reading what you said to nikitakid (sp?)
17:43 < genete> oh I meet it long time ago and now I don't remember any token! xD
17:43 < Yoyobuae> about subdividing complex shapes, holes appearing
17:43 < genete> (sp?)?
17:43 < genete> ah
17:44 < Yoyobuae> *(not sure if spelliing is right)
17:44 < genete> but it was a real hole, a missing shape, something he forgot to place in
17:44 < genete> because the filling color of the shapes was white and the background is white too, so he missed it
17:45 < Yoyobuae> but isn't it kinda confusing to have to fill a shape with multiple independent regions?
17:46 < Yoyobuae> ideally one would just focus on the outline, then let the software fill everythin inside =)
17:46 < genete> eeeh, don't move the speech to your terrain! mad guy! ;)
17:47 < genete>  he he he
17:47 < Yoyobuae> hehe =)
17:47 < Yoyobuae> it doesnt have to something like vector objects
17:48 < Yoyobuae> even just being to create a union of regions would be enough
17:50 < genete> Groups are that unkown feature of synfig that once fixed everybody will love
17:51 < Yoyobuae> hmmm, how will groups help?
17:52 < genete> a group allows select scatered layers (objects in your case) at the same time
17:52 < Yoyobuae> the only thing i can imagine is that will all the bline ducks shown
17:52 < Yoyobuae> one can see a bit better where could a shape be missing
17:52 < genete> if it were possible to specialize goups to perform more operations than now they will be great
17:53 < genete> bones can be som sort of groups devices
17:53 < Yoyobuae> well, right now groups only serve as a easy way to select multiple layers ;)
17:54 < genete> and allow to increase its amount, raise or lower it, etc.
17:54 < Yoyobuae> which you can do if you manually select several layers 
17:54 < Yoyobuae> it just takes longer, doing it manually
17:55 < genete> what if a layer doesn't render iif it is not in a group
17:56 < genete> I mean what if some kind of group acts like the container of the vector objects you propose?
17:56 < genete> (I'm brainstorming)
17:57 < Yoyobuae> the idea behind vector objects is to have greater flexibility manipulating vector information
17:58 < Yoyobuae> to be able to do what can't be done with valuenodes
17:58 < Yoyobuae> at least not with a huge effort
17:58 < Yoyobuae> it really doesnt matter just how are vector objects represented as
18:02 < Yoyobuae> my main worry is that the more I try to gain flexibility, the more the vector objects idea looks like a programming/scripting language xD
18:03 < genete> yes, flexibility doesn't mean easy to manage
18:04 < Yoyobuae> and its understandable, whats the standard way to express "behavior" of things to a computer? programming
18:05 < genete> I remember the firsts times of povray. Whoa! you can do whatever you want! but you need to write the code for it :)
18:05 < genete> same here. Maybe at first stage you need to "program" it. But later with more experience and time it would turn into a new interface and way to work
18:05 < Yoyobuae> but once people write code, then put a pretty UI for it, it becomes easier
18:06 < Yoyobuae> yes exactly
18:06 < Yoyobuae> but then it loses flexibility xD
18:06 < genete> no
18:07 < genete> no at last, if the UI is a wire directly to your brain :P
18:07 < Yoyobuae> hehe
18:08 < Yoyobuae> there are a few things that could make things easier
18:09 < Yoyobuae> if one can see the results of small pieces of "program" inmediatly
18:09 < Yoyobuae> then its easier to understand what goes on
18:09 < Yoyobuae> that's how programmers do their work anyway, "write, test, fix, test, write..."
18:10 < genete> scripting is what you need?
18:10 < Yoyobuae> internally at least, yes, probably
18:16 < Yoyobuae> here's how i think vector objects should work (for the moment):
18:16 < Yoyobuae> - have a template/skeleton of simple shapes: circles, squares, "spheres", "cylinders", etc
18:16 < Yoyobuae> - subdivide those into parts
18:16 < Yoyobuae> - work on each part (modifying it), giving it more detailed look and behavior (animation)
18:16 < Yoyobuae> - link everything back seemlessly into whole shapes
18:16 < Yoyobuae> - apply outlines, fills, etc
18:17 < Yoyobuae> the initial template would be animatable from the start
18:18 < Yoyobuae> the engine should be able to animate at least the basic shapes
18:18 < Yoyobuae> then the work of the animator would be preserving that flexibility, while adding detail to it
18:18 < genete> Yoyobuae: but those simple shapes are 2D, right?
18:19 < Yoyobuae> all 2D
18:19 < Yoyobuae> the 3D shapes are proyected to 2D first
18:20 < genete> but you know that during animation a cilinder can be seen like a circle or like a rectangle... 
18:20 < genete> or like something intermediate
18:21 < Yoyobuae> thats the part the code needs to take care of
18:21 < Yoyobuae> thats the "behavior" of the shape
18:22 < Yoyobuae> the cylinder always (well almost) has four "sides"
18:22 < Yoyobuae> 2 round ones, 2 straight ones
18:23 < genete> what I don't like from your concepts is that you loose the expresivity of the animator. Since I read the Animator survival kit I like more the free drawing instead of the preprogrammed one
18:24 < Yoyobuae> the preprogrammed shapes are the base the animator works on top on
18:24 < Yoyobuae> there would need to be a way to replace the preprogrammed shapes (one small part at a time) with free form blines and such
18:25 < Yoyobuae> but thats when the big problem starts, how will the free form shapes be animated? XD
18:27 < Yoyobuae> what i was trying here is to mimic how anime is usually done
18:27 < Yoyobuae> start first with simple, almost geometric, shapes
18:27 < Yoyobuae> then work the details from there
18:29 < genete> the part you have problems is where the free mind comes around
18:29 < genete> free expresivity won't never be substituted by pre-programmed shapes
18:30 < Zelgadis> That's why I do like 2D animation more than 3D.
18:30 < Yoyobuae> yes i understand that
18:30 < Zelgadis> But structured shapes helping me much in animation.
18:30 < Yoyobuae> remember, i really DONT want to make another "3D" here
18:30 < Zelgadis> Like headturns etc.
18:31 < Yoyobuae> i hate the "computer" like animation of 3D movies and such =/
18:31 < genete> Yoyobuae: need to go. Back later on the stuff. Cheers
18:31 < Yoyobuae> genete: late
18:32 < Yoyobuae> genete: later
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18:33 < Yoyobuae> one last line, for the logs: the missing piece is how to let the artist/user express the "behavior" of shapes, just as freely as they can express a single static shape
18:34 < Yoyobuae> the "language" to express those ideas is missing
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 17 00:00:00 2009