--- Log opened Wed Mar 25 00:00:23 2009 00:02 -!- nikitakit [n=nikita@cpe-76-95-138-43.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #synfig 00:03 < nikitakit> Hello 00:28 -!- genete [n=carlos@79.108.35.234.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #synfig [] 00:29 < stonerfish> You got too personal and scared genete away. 00:29 < nikitakit> !! :( 00:29 < stonerfish> Opps, I did it again, and forgot to read the times on the posts. 00:30 < nikitakit> I do that all the time with the logs 00:30 < stonerfish> I was commenting on something wormsxulla said hours ago 00:31 < nikitakit> Oh... 00:53 -!- factor [n=factor@ip70-189-85-196.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:59 -!- factor [n=factor@ip70-189-85-196.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #synfig 01:10 -!- rubikcube [n=kvirc@dslc-082-082-064-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #synfig 01:40 -!- nikitakit [n=nikita@cpe-76-95-138-43.socal.res.rr.com] has left #synfig [] 03:14 -!- rubikcube [n=kvirc@dslc-082-082-064-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo"] 04:26 -!- AkhIL [n=akhilman@90.188.197.180] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:29 -!- AkhIL [n=akhilman@90.188.197.180] has joined #synfig 04:35 -!- AkhIL [n=akhilman@90.188.197.180] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:52 -!- Zelgadis [n=zelgadis@87.103.171.143] has joined #synfig 05:28 -!- AkhIL [n=akhilman@90.188.197.180] has joined #synfig 05:33 -!- wormsxulla_ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/wormsxulla] has joined #synfig 05:34 -!- mercury___ [n=chatzill@189.143.232.56] has joined #synfig 05:35 -!- wormsxulla [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/wormsxulla] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35 -!- wormsxulla_ is now known as wormsxulla 06:11 -!- stonerfish [n=js@adsl-75-3-227-136.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:55 -!- mercury___ [n=chatzill@189.143.232.56] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009030422]"] 08:30 -!- Zelgadis [n=zelgadis@87.103.171.143] has quit ["Ухожу"] 09:22 -!- rubikcube [n=kvirc@dslb-088-070-004-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #synfig 10:36 -!- genete [i=d90c1036@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-34d930909b1381e0] has joined #synfig 11:09 -!- Zelgadis [n=zelgadis@87.103.171.143] has joined #synfig 11:26 -!- factor_ [n=factor@ip70-189-85-196.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #synfig 11:27 -!- factor [n=factor@ip70-189-85-196.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:33 -!- Zelgadis [n=zelgadis@87.103.171.143] has quit ["Ухожу"] 11:37 -!- rubikcube [n=kvirc@dslb-088-070-004-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo"] 12:43 -!- Zelgadis [n=zelgadis@87.103.171.143] has joined #synfig 12:53 < genete> hey Zelgadis 12:53 < Zelgadis> Hey, genete! 12:53 < genete> hi all 12:53 < pixelbot> Hello genete 12:53 < Zelgadis> Amazing work on promoting MP! 12:54 < genete> oh, you read the posts! :D 12:54 < genete> as you can see (with a small spanish translation) I'm asking for Synfig help too 8-) 12:57 < Zelgadis> genete: http://f.imagehost.org/view/0206/Screenshot 12:57 < Zelgadis> Yes, its cool if we have more people interested in helping Synfig! 12:58 < genete> I want that counter for synfig website too! 12:58 < genete> cool! 13:01 -!- AkhIL [n=akhilman@90.188.197.180] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:06 -!- AkhIL [n=akhilman@90.188.197.180] has joined #synfig 13:17 -!- rubikcube [n=kvirc@dslb-088-070-004-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #synfig 13:50 -!- Zelgadis [n=zelgadis@87.103.171.143] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50 -!- stonerfish [n=js@adsl-75-3-227-136.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #synfig 17:09 -!- factor_ is now known as factor 17:27 -!- nikitakit [n=nikita@cpe-76-95-138-43.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #synfig 17:29 < genete> hi nikitakit 17:30 < nikitakit> hello genete 17:31 < genete> did you read my comments in the forum? 17:32 < nikitakit> yes I did 17:33 < nikitakit> you're right, of course, I need to do a better job 17:34 < genete> don't be disappointed, please 17:34 < genete> but yes, Ivan's hair is specially difficult 17:35 < nikitakit> As for there being too many points... 17:35 < nikitakit> is there any way to abruptly drop width to 0 17:35 < nikitakit> If I want a segment of the BLine to be invisible, I usually need to add 2 more points with width 0 to accomplish the task 17:35 < genete> yes 17:36 < genete> make a segment of bline not visible using width is not the best solution in all the cases, IMHO 17:36 < nikitakit> Then how? 17:37 < genete> have you used the link to bline feature anytime? 17:37 < nikitakit> yes I have 17:38 < genete> use widths imply to have a width of 0 on the edge and maybe you don't want that 17:38 < genete> when I neccesarily need an outline with one or more segments hidden I do the following: 17:40 < genete> 1) If the hidden segment is only one then right click on the bline and select Unloop form the context menu. Then right click again over the segment to hide and select Rotate Order 17:40 < nikitakit> interesting... 17:40 < genete> 2) If there are more than one segment to hide (contiguous) then I dont create the ouline at the same time than the region 17:41 < genete> I create the region and then create an outline (IMPORTANT: in the same clockwise direction) and stitch the amount of blinepoints one by one 17:42 < genete> to stitch the blinepoints I select one by one each vertex of the region and the outnline and right click -> Link. Same with the tangent of the same color 17:42 < genete> (it is tedious but works) 17:42 < genete> and finnally. 17:43 < genete> 3) If the outline is going to be movable around the region I use Link to bline 17:44 < genete> for example, a region can be partially outlined with an outline that has its blinepoints "Linked to Bline" of the region. 17:44 < nikitakit> So more than one outline per region?(if multiple gaps) 17:45 < genete> you can slide the blinepoints around the region edge to place the outline where ever you want. In some cases you need to put more close or separated the blinespoints of the outline depending of the curvature of the region 17:45 < genete> but it can be adjusted for each situation 17:46 < genete> yes, more than one outline per region, linking or linking to bline. It is tedious and should be automatized but nobody has implemented it in the code 17:46 < genete> anyway it can be done manually 17:47 < genete> It is interesting only for animations (the outline follows the region. For a simple static image it doesn't matter, just put outlines onto and that's all :) 17:49 < nikitakit> Thank you! 17:49 < nikitakit> And I totally agree that it should be automated... 18:06 -!- mercury___ [n=chatzill@189.143.216.77] has joined #synfig 18:19 -!- factor [n=factor@ip70-189-85-196.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19 -!- factor [n=factor@ip70-189-85-196.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #synfig 18:25 -!- genete [i=d90c1036@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-34d930909b1381e0] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:46 -!- Yaco [n=Franco@201.255.255.112] has joined #synfig 19:47 -!- wormsxulla_ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/wormsxulla] has joined #synfig 19:47 -!- wormsxulla [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/wormsxulla] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47 -!- wormsxulla_ is now known as wormsxulla 20:02 -!- Yoyobuae [n=chatzill@200.124.22.34] has joined #synfig 20:07 < Yoyobuae> "17:46 < genete> yes, more than one outline per region, linking or linking to bline. It is tedious and should be automatized but nobody has implemented it in the code" 20:07 < Yoyobuae> this is why synfig needs a better method to deal with "vector data", blines in this case 20:07 < nikitakit> any ideas what the 'better method' would be? 20:08 < Yoyobuae> my idea is to be able to handle things like a bline as an independent entity 20:09 < Yoyobuae> then with have the ability to process it, like splitting it in two blines 20:10 < Yoyobuae> by having an original bline, splitting it into pieces, then using some of the pieces in outlines 20:10 < nikitakit> Hmmm... 20:10 < Yoyobuae> then it would be possible to attach an outline to whatever part of the bline 20:12 < nikitakit> I have some ideas about how to modify the SIF standard to support this... 20:12 < nikitakit> (I'll be back soon) 20:12 -!- nikitakit [n=nikita@cpe-76-95-138-43.socal.res.rr.com] has left #synfig [] 20:21 -!- nikitakit [n=nikita@cpe-76-95-138-43.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #synfig 20:23 < nikitakit> Yoyobuae: how much do you know about SIF files? 20:24 < Yoyobuae> nikitakit: enough =) 20:24 < nikitakit> If there isn't already, there should be something like a tag 20:25 < nikitakit> Right now, linking points on a BLine must be done one at a time 20:25 < Yoyobuae> there are groups in synfig 20:26 < Yoyobuae> they group layers though 20:26 < nikitakit> Say I wanted to link two BLine points on region/outline 20:27 < nikitakit> Right now I can link either both tag pairs 20:28 < nikitakit> Instead, I would like to group the entries together (esentially, allow nesting BLines inside each other) 20:29 < Yoyobuae> so a bline, with several blines inside =) 20:30 < nikitakit> Yes, but extensible to other tags as well 20:30 < nikitakit> so instead of I could do constant? 20:36 < Yoyobuae> i mean that a group is always there during the entire animation 20:36 < Yoyobuae> it could be hidden perhaps, but it is there 20:38 < nikitakit> Yes, there is the drawback that you can't regroup 20:38 < Yoyobuae> let say for example that i have a bline and i want to "slice" it with a straight line 20:38 < Yoyobuae> i wan to be able to move the bline, or the straight line 20:39 < Yoyobuae> and have the "slice" to change too 20:39 < nikitakit> Interesting problem... 20:39 < Yoyobuae> the bline might be split in two, or more places 20:39 < Yoyobuae> or none at all 20:39 < nikitakit> (Another problem is no crossgrouping (A-B-C) can't be grouped as A-B and B-C simultaneously) 20:41 < Yoyobuae> something that could help that is to be able to "extract" a piece of bline and copy it as an independent object 20:42 < Yoyobuae> the interesting part that this "extraction" could be made to happen on each frame 20:43 < Yoyobuae> so in on each part of the animation the "extracted" piece could be different 20:44 < nikitakit> That could work, but there needs to be the capability of combining extracted pieces 20:45 < nikitakit> If you can split apart, but not put BLines together, there could be problems 20:45 -!- mercury___ [n=chatzill@189.143.216.77] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009030422]"] 20:46 < Yoyobuae> well then create, yet another, object with some or all of the pieces combined 20:46 < Yoyobuae> the idea is simple, take an object, process it, produce a NEW object 20:47 < Yoyobuae> the old objects just stay there, so anything that used those old object doesn't break 20:47 < nikitakit> Is the processing part of the render or an action during manual edit? 20:47 < Yoyobuae> action during manual edit = not animated 20:47 < Yoyobuae> so it should happen during render 20:48 < Yoyobuae> its like with valuenodes when they calculate their value when rendering each frame 20:49 < nikitakit> Oh ok, so durign render. I thought that perhaps you were suggesting a GUI change alone 20:54 < nikitakit> Sounds like a good idea. Though I still thinks groups would be a worthwhile feature to implement 20:55 < Yoyobuae> the problem with my idea is that it would require A LOT of code xD 20:56 < nikitakit> What about group? 20:56 < nikitakit> It should be as simple as directly parsing all child tags, but there's the export/linking parameters to deal with 20:57 < nikitakit> Or am I wrong? 20:58 < Yoyobuae> the only problem is that the code tends to get inside of the "tags" too much 20:58 < nikitakit> sorry? 20:58 < Yoyobuae> it assumes that it will find "BLine Point" nodes inside of the "BLine" 20:59 < Yoyobuae> if you put a "Group" node in there, then things get messed up 21:00 < nikitakit> How about putting group in the pre-process of each frame 21:01 < nikitakit> How are tags parsed? I haven't really looked at the code 21:01 < Yoyobuae> there are two main "entities" on synfig 21:01 < Yoyobuae> layers and valuenodes 21:02 < Yoyobuae> layers are Region, Outline, Circle, etc 21:02 < Yoyobuae> valuenodes are Real, Vector, Animated, Add, etc 21:02 < Yoyobuae> so tag is a valuenode 21:03 < nikitakit> is a valuenode... 21:03 < Yoyobuae> valuenodes get evaluated on each frame, and return a value 21:03 < nikitakit> No wonder the tag doesn't work the way I'm using it! 21:04 < nikitakit> Personally, I would prefer animated to be a pre-parser command (though this will be harder to implement) 21:06 < Yoyobuae> the thing is that animated is meant to take the place of real, vector, etc valuenodes 21:06 < Yoyobuae> so it can only return ONE such value 21:07 < Yoyobuae> valuenodes are like: x = f(...) 21:07 < nikitakit> Yes, I understand 21:08 < nikitakit> Just throwing an idea out there: would there be benefits of reimplementing animated as a switch, not a valuenode? 21:08 < Yoyobuae> switch? 21:09 < nikitakit> Actually, that would be problematic 21:09 < nikitakit> my idea was so that you could do < layer/>... 21:10 < nikitakit> But I just realized that this would totally fail the auto-tween functionality 21:12 < Yoyobuae> currently the only way would be to animate the "Amount" for the layer 21:12 < nikitakit> Yes, I understand. I guess animated shall remain a valuenode... 21:14 < Yoyobuae> thats another of the problem with the idea i explained 21:14 < Yoyobuae> since synfig's layers serve as objects 21:14 < Yoyobuae> then it would not be possible for a "Outline" layer (for example) to be split in two 21:15 < Yoyobuae> layers themselves cannot be removed/added during animation 21:16 < nikitakit> Yes, that is a problem. Do you think a major re-implementation is worth discussing? 21:18 < Yoyobuae> i dont know if "a major re-implementation" would be even possible xD 21:19 < nikitakit> Well, it's better to recognize sooner than later if the layer-valuenode separation is a problem 21:19 < Yoyobuae> the main coder (dooglus) lost its laptop 21:19 < Yoyobuae> and there are a few other coders contributing here and there 21:20 < nikitakit> ! no wonder I haven't seen dooglus around 21:20 < Yoyobuae> i personally am a bit overwhelmed by synfig's code complexities xD 21:23 < nikitakit> Same here 21:23 < nikitakit> But I'll try to think of some possible changes 21:25 -!- akagogo [n=carlos@201.230.76.58] has joined #synfig 21:29 < nikitakit> But the tag... would it be possible to implement it as a preparser? 21:30 -!- Yaco [n=Franco@201.255.255.112] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30 < nikitakit> That is: 1. Find any group tags, and set up linking between them 21:31 < nikitakit> 2. Set guid of all child tags to match when parent group tags are linked. Convert any valuebase node into its components (individual valuebase nodes for all child tags) 21:32 < nikitakit> 3. Remove tags and proceed to render 21:34 < nikitakit> Actually, now that I think of it, it won't be easy this way either. 21:35 -!- nikitakit [n=nikita@cpe-76-95-138-43.socal.res.rr.com] has left #synfig [] 21:40 -!- pixelgeek [i=86868b47@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ab22553fd65b2442] has joined #synfig 22:14 -!- Yaco [n=Franco@OL186-149.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #synfig 23:32 -!- Yaco [n=Franco@OL186-149.fibertel.com.ar] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:44 -!- genete [n=carlos@79.108.35.234.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #synfig 23:44 < genete> hi people! 23:45 < genete> I knew my explanations to nikitakit would trigger Yoyobuae ideas ;) 23:45 < Yoyobuae> genete: there's no escape 23:45 < genete> :D 23:45 < Yoyobuae> vector objects just fit everywhere :P 23:46 < genete> In fact I was provoking you! :P 23:46 < Yoyobuae> well, i guess you succeeded :D 23:47 < Yoyobuae> anyway, i think one thing that nikitakid said was probably true 23:47 < Yoyobuae> it would be easier to implement these kind of things a "pre-parser" of sorts 23:48 < genete> that can be done with a little of scripting 23:48 < genete> interface 23:48 < genete> btw, how does look the head turn I did "without vector objects"? 23:49 < Yoyobuae> i havent seen the head turn lately 23:50 < genete> http://synfig.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2692#p2692 23:52 < Yoyobuae> nice 23:52 < Yoyobuae> but i can't imagine the amount of effort it probably took :P 23:53 < genete> I spend more time thinking than really doing it. 23:53 < genete> but at the end a good preparation is always a time saver 23:54 < genete> http://morevnaproject.org/wiki/Scenes/Demo/22 23:58 < pixelgeek> She looks so odd with short hair.... 23:58 * pixelgeek off to a meeting. 23:58 < genete> like any woman that usually has long hair :) 23:59 -!- pixelgeek [i=86868b47@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ab22553fd65b2442] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] --- Log closed Thu Mar 26 00:00:29 2009