--- Log opened Tue Mar 09 00:00:14 2010
00:23 < genete> *********pixelgeek******* please read synfig-devel mailing list
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01:49 < amphoto1> hello all, I am trying to build SynfigStudio on my iMac G5 ppc and I am running into an error in the build process, is there any where this group post scode so maybe someone can take alook at my compiler log and see if they understand the problem?  It seems to be in libmod_svg.
01:49 < pixelbot> Hello amphoto1
01:49 < amphoto1> posts code
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04:09 < amphoto1> References to "Glib" in svg_parser.h and .cpp files are undeclared and causing issues.
04:24 < amphoto1> Here's a link to relevant post on mod_svg files and misgivings about using Glib over cairo for handling vector graphics...wonder if this is truly relevant? http://synfig.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=340&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=2186521f0db1fdcc7737106c46d4cc57&start=15
04:34 < amphoto1> I could be way off the mark and just be missing some particular lines in the macosxbuild.sh file or some other parameters...I'm excising the offending files and trying to re-build, now.
04:52 < amphoto1> nope it's all connected into he Makefiles...open_svg now offends the compiler.  I have glib1, glib2 and glibmm installed from MacPorts...wondering why "Glib" in svg_parser,h and .cpp are hitting an undeclared wall.
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11:27 < genete> On thrusday I will lead a new workshop for Synfig on my town: http://osl.uca.es/josluca/programa
11:29 < mray> unfortunately it isn't around the corner :P
11:29 < genete> mray: :)
11:30 < mray> what a nice program - i would come! looks like a small fosdem!
11:31 < mray> btw is anybody going to be a tthe LGM this year?
11:32 < mray> i don't remeber having seen ANY video about synfig at LGM. the project managed to slip under my radar for a relatively long time
11:33 < mray> genete: i updated the forum entry http://synfig.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1071&p=5409#p5409 :P
11:39 < genete> mray: I wanted to go a few months ago but lately my personal stuff is turning from complex to really complex so I cannot go.
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11:53 < mray> same here - i'm not really tied to a project but wanted to get to see all the free creative software people. unfortunately this year is no exeption.
11:55 < mray> can't somebody else go there and have a talk? - even if it is only to introduce synfig so that people have an idea!
11:56 < mray> dosn't have to be a developer imho - just being visible counts! maybe next year somebody with more background information can go into detail
11:56 < genete> mray: where are you from?
11:57 < mray> i believe synfig covers a spot in the free software landscape that has almost no competition
11:57 < mray> i'm from germany (but my name does not indicate that right? ;)
11:57 < mray> pero entiendo un poco espanol ;)
11:58 < genete> ah bien! Tienes Bruselas más cerca de ti que de mi!
12:00 < mray> si, esto es cierto
12:00 < mray> pero no tengo el tiempo
12:01 < mray> me parece que voy a ser padre en mayo - y no quiero salir de alemana en este tiempo :P
12:02 < mray> tons of errors in there probably ^^
12:02 < genete> collaborate on an open source project is not an easy thing. It implies a lot of effort and dedication. Sometimes the reward is so invisible. Sometimes the community has to understand personal issues...
12:03 < genete> no! está perfecto! *alemana* solamente está errónea -> Alemania
12:04 < genete> por cierto, el splash es muy bello
12:04 < genete> buen trabajo
12:04 < mray> gracias ^^
12:06 < mray> i'm really surprised about the power of synfigs layers. it is way ahead of gimp inkscape or any other tool in terms of non-destructive editing. 
12:07 < mray> it is just a BEAST to control at the moment :P
12:17 < genete> he he
12:17 < genete> yes, and more to come
12:17 < genete> it has room for a lot of new types of layers 
12:25 < mray> btw - are there plans to work on new value inpit methods like sliders and stuff you can control with teh mouswheel?
12:26 < genete> which parameter are tou specifically referering to?
12:26 < mray> i find it very hard to enter all values like in a database window
12:26 < mray> values in param window 
12:26 < genete> but which one in particular?
12:26 < mray> values that typically have a certain range would be nice to use as sliders
12:26 < genete> Amount?
12:26 < mray> for example yes
12:27 < genete> first is that the current canvas is not well designed: I tried to expose more options on it on the 0.62 version
12:27 < genete> there are some doubts about it: 
12:27 < genete> but it is so populated
12:28 < genete> and second
12:28 < mray> maybe i'm unrealistic with this idea - but blender for example handles that vey well - they have to have many fields with values, too.
12:28 < genete> the amount parameter can work if only one layer is selected
12:28 < genete> if you have multiple layers selected the amount parameter is not refelcting any of them
12:28 < genete> anyway you can use it as a differential value
12:29 < genete> how would be the interface?
12:29 < mray> what's that?
12:29 < genete> the differential value?
12:29 < mray> yes
12:29 < genete> imagine you have selected 3 layers with amounts of 0.3, 0.2 and 1
12:30 < genete> what value would reflect the amount slider?
12:30 < genete> I propose to reflect 0.5 and apply the changes as differences
12:30 < genete> if you increase it from 0.5 to 1 it would produce a set of values like that: 0.8, 0.7, 1.5
12:31 < genete> but the slider should reflect that inconsistent status when it where exposed to the user
12:31 < genete> to wanr the user about what's doing
12:32 < mray> that should be possibl with color coding: so that you're warned when you change MULTIPLE values in one field
12:32 < mray> blender takes the input field to a whole new level: you can click on a number and drag it to the left or right using it as an invisible slider for example
12:32 < genete> the amount slider is a great candidate to be exposed to the user gui without need to go to the param panel but, where do we place it??
12:33 < mray> amount is alpha of any given layer right?
12:33 < genete> blender uses its own widgets what are great.
12:33 < genete> yes, alpha
12:33 < mray> i know blender has a huge advantage - but maybe QT offers something similar
12:34 < genete> we (me) are not in a position to try to rewrite a lot of new widgets for everything and should try to reuse the gtk ones as much as possible. Not at this coders resource level.
12:34 < mray> i agree, but i don't know what QT offers today maybe there are more possibilities...
12:35 < prokoudine> btw, did you guys check out ramen?
12:35 < mray> the param window in general feels a bit heavy to use, a bit as if you "code" your animation.
12:35 < mray> i wanted!!! but they don't offer binaries for ubuntu :(
12:35 < prokoudine> mray: sure they do
12:35 < mray> !
12:35 < genete> I was talking to nikitakit yesterday about the possibility of port to QT or do a big redesign of the gui using our own widgets. But sincerely, I cannot afford to do it now
12:36 < mray> cool i must have been looking poorly then!
12:36 < prokoudine> http://libregraphicsworld.org/articles.php?article_id=14 explicitely mentions that :)
12:36 < prokoudine> it's https://launchpad.net/~gabriel-inv/+archive/ramenhdr
12:37 < mray> oh yes a saw your in detail review of the software - that's how i got to see it exists!
12:37  * mray adds the ppa
12:37 < prokoudine> not mine :)
12:38 < prokoudine> akhil's
12:38  * prokoudine pings esteban to link to the PPA from the main page
12:41 < genete> good article indeed. 
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12:46 < genete> mray: so back to the alpha (or amount parameter) where would you place it?
12:47 < mray> i'm not sure i would want to destroy the logic of having all values together
12:47 < mray> it is more the handling of the values. there is so few space down there
12:48 < mray> the type fields for example are double - the icon indicates the type already
12:48 < genete> you can always move the parameters panel and place it somewhere
12:48 < genete> I know what you mean
12:49 < genete> more widgets for usual parameters in the param panel, right?
12:49 < mray> that'sa  great freedom - but tehre has to be a sensible default - nobody wants to fiddle around only to find the perfect arrangement for himself after 4years or so ^^
12:49 < mray> yes. that would be one thing.
12:50 < genete> like the checkbox for the boolean parameter you would like to have sliders for the parameters that have limited values
12:50 < mray> changing koordinates is a pain - you don't see the actual values when you click in thefield because it is 2 looooooong values 
12:51 < mray> yes - everything that makes the work mare fluent. but i see it is not so easy as you ahve to deal with a komplete "system" of presenting values and you have to be consistent
12:51 < mray> *more fluent
12:52 < mray> i see the "table" approach is very easy for the coder, and the most flexible when new things are introduced to the functionality :P
12:52 < mray> and: it works.
12:53 < genete> yes, parameters are not similar in all the layes
12:53 < genete> layers
12:54 < genete> there is so much lost space due to the multi window approaching
12:54 < mray> btw about the amoun: you can assign an amount of 1.5 to a layer that is encapsulated in a group that has amount 0.5 - so you cant just have a slider from 0-1 right?
12:55 < mray> indeed - i also notice that it seems to be impossible to deactivate scrollbars in the canvas window
13:01 < genete> " btw about the amoun: you can assign an amount of 1.5 to a layer that is encapsulated in a group that has amount 0.5 - so you cant just have a slider from 0-1 right?"  <<<<I don't understand the question sorry
13:06 < mray> hehe
13:07 < mray> all i want to say is: there are situation where you might want to have an amount greater than 1. that's already a problem when you restrict a slider to a range from 0-1 :P
13:08 < genete> one of the great things of synfig is that the parameters (in general, there are some exceptions) are not limited
13:08 < genete> so you have the possibility of a high range color with that posibility
13:09 < genete> (repeated possibility ;)
13:10 < genete> that was one of the reason to not decide yet to adopt the standard GTK color chooser (there is a branch from Bombe that has it implemented in replacement of the current color selector dialog)
13:10 < genete> but I believe that we shoulnd't loose the high range color selection
13:10 < genete> and alpha is one of them
13:11 < genete> nevertheless, have a slider doesn't mean to deprecate the input field so we don't restrict the designer at all
13:11 < mray> but you can use the color chooser and fall back to manual coloring when you need more colors - no?
13:12 < genete> the proposed change from Bombe was replace the current color selector dialog to a standard one. The standard has limited range sliders and non decimal point values
13:12 < genete> I want the best of both worlds ;)
13:13 < mray> that's a good idea
13:15 < genete> I have in mind to have a multiple tab color selector dialog where the background values are float rgba and unlimited and there are two front ends: one gtk standard with those limitations and the current one with its current (or better) sliders
13:17 < mray> won't gtk offer a better (more precise) color chooser in teh future?
13:18 < genete> I don't know
13:18 < mray> and what about the GIMP changes - is the the possibility to use some of their "one window code" ?
13:19 < genete> we could look the code but reuse it would be a bit hard. Gimp is pure Gtk (C) and we use Gtkmm (C++)
13:19 < genete> we should find our own way ;)
13:20 < genete> recently I've used a microlaptop with a tiny window. It was very annoying that the Inkscape window was not possible to resize to a small size. I cannot see the whole window. It happened to other applications
13:21 < mray> but regarding the long run: do you "want" to abandon the multiple windows situation, too?
13:22  * mray hopes so
13:22 < genete> There is an intermediate solution that is make a mixed interface. 
13:22 < genete> a central window where the others can be glued automatically
13:23 < genete> so once glued you can arrange them by sliding separators
13:23 < genete> it would save a lot of space and would eventually allow to use multiple monitors
13:24 < genete> a riggid single window application is a blocker for multiple monitor user
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13:24 < genete> and we need space for the timeline and the paramters panels
13:24 < Zelgadis> yo!
13:24 < genete> Zelgadis!!!
13:24 < Zelgadis> Hi, everyone!
13:24 < Zelgadis> Lots of logs to catch ^___^
13:24 < genete> forget the logs!
13:24 < genete> focus on GSoc!
13:25 < genete> we urgently need to send the form as soon as possible
13:25 < mray> hello!
13:25 < genete> I have modified the draft page of the wiki to match the questions of the appliance form
13:26 < genete> also I've asked to Yoyobuae, Nikitakit and Yaco for code mentor, code mentor and admin backup respectively
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13:26 < genete> I only have obtained Yaco's full agreement
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13:26 < genete> pixelgeek seems to be missing
13:26 < genete> because he hasn't replied the forum entry or the synfig-devel mail
13:27 < genete> and I strongly believe that we ust send the form before the last time because there are other steps to do after
13:27 < genete> like link the mentors with the organization and the admin accept them
13:28 < genete> ups, sorry for flood the channel
13:36 < mray> @amount value again: there are minor things like this:
13:36 < mray> you cannot single click, and you cannot double click the value. you have to click twice but as two seperate single clicks - this is disturbing. and when you succeed you end up seeing only the last part of a very long value and have to scroll forward to see what is going on.
13:39 < mray> this is a huge drawback on editing values as important as alpha
13:39 < mray> is should be a snap
13:42 < genete> the behavior of the cells of the treemodel of the param panels is customized, yes. And it has some glitches
13:43 < genete> the two clicks are because you're changing from one window to other and the focus of the mouse is not properly moved
13:43 < genete> so you need two clicks
13:43 < genete> one to get the param window focus and other to edit the widget
13:44 < genete> doucble clics are managed in other event handler so that's the reason it fails
13:44 < mray> ah ok. that explains it
13:44 < genete> if they were a single window...
13:44 < mray> then there is other minor stuff like the left padding of the names of values
13:45 < genete> but I bet that those strange errors can be fixed with current multiple panels gui
13:45 < mray> why not gain some extra space by aligning it to the very left of the tab?
13:45 < genete> left padding?
13:45 < genete> let me see
13:45 < mray> left of the icons there is room
13:46 < mray> it isn't much
13:46 < Zelgadis> genete: yes, I saw wiki edits
13:46 < mray> about 20px maybe
13:46 < genete> mray: it is for the arrows when the parameter has subparameters
13:46 < Zelgadis> I'll view at the application as soon as possible (lot of work here, though)
13:47 < genete> Zelgadis: Yaco's Link ID is "yaco"
13:47 < Zelgadis> ok
13:47 < genete> I can send the form if you're so busy
13:47 < mray> genete: i see, all is due to using out of the box elements
13:49 < mray> oh an one thing: the ducks often differ only in color - not so good if you can't distinguish certain colors  (like about 10% of the male population)
13:50 < genete> mray: good point. 
13:51 < mray> what about hiding rulers and scrollbars? is that possible?
13:51 < mray> i do pan with middle mouse only in all applications like gimp, inkscape and since lately scribus.
13:52 < genete> you can pan with middle button in Synfig too
13:52 < mray> that's why i don't need the scrollbars :)
13:53 < mray> i don't use them adn the space is lost for me, and it adds extra weight in my eyes
13:53 < genete> how do you pan only in horizontal or vertical?
13:54 < mray> mouse wheel?
13:54 < mray> mouse wheel+shift
13:54 < genete> yes, for vertical and horizontal
13:54 < genete> but can you scroll accurately with that?
13:54 < mray> i dont use it often.
13:54 < mray> also  - when do you need to rely on precise scrolling?
13:55 < mray> i only need precise object movement
13:55 < genete> people are not color blind ofter ;)
13:55 < genete> often*
13:55 < mray> not completely - but many people have problems with red/green
13:56 < genete> I agree on the scroll bars waste of space but the central button click and pan is not obvious for newbies
13:57 < mray> but the rest of synfig is? :D
13:57 < genete> also if you have a two buttons only mouse it is very hard to pan. Click both buttons at the same time is hard indeed
13:57 < mray> i would make scrollbars an option of course
13:57 < mray> maybe even leave them on by default
13:57 < genete> we should try to make synfig more obvious, not more obscure than it is now! :)
13:57 < mray> but i would love to be able to disable them
13:58 < genete> have it as optional would be a good compromise yes
13:58 < genete> it can be so easy to implement
13:58 < genete> same for time track panel
13:59 < genete> it eventually can have double scroll bars!
13:59 < mray> hehe i remember seeing that yesterday
14:03 < Zelgadis> genete: I suggest to send form tomorrow evening
14:05 < Zelgadis> BTW sliders for amount is not good, because you can have amount > than 1 and less than 0
14:07 < genete> Zelgadis, ok tomorrow evening (your evening or mine) ;)
14:07 < genete> Zelgadis: sliders can be additional, we can keep the current numerical editors
14:08 < genete> like the current color dialog does :)
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16:39 < mray> genete: are you the synfig webguy, too?
16:39 < mray> the homepage should use the synfig logo as icon!
16:41 < genete> yes indeed. We have the favicon correctly placed but for some reason it doesn't get loaded by the browser
16:41 < mray> hm.
16:42 < mray> chrome and opera don't seem to find the right icon either.
16:43 < genete> it is not a high prioriry now IMHO
16:43 < mray> btw what do you think of joining the create newsfeed? http://create.freedesktop.org/ 
16:43 < mray> it sure isn't. :P
16:44 < genete> my self is already joined to it. Do you mean join create to website?
16:44 < genete> I mean, I receive all the mailing from create in my mail box
16:44 < mray> i mean when you post some news about synfig, it could appear on create, too
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16:45 < mray> i'm not in a decision making position at all!
16:45 < mray> i just imagine it would be logic to add your newsfeed from synfig.org
16:46 < genete> yes indeed
16:46 < genete> how can I do it automatically?
16:46 < genete> how do I send RSS from synfig.org to create mailing lists?
16:47 < mray> i think you can't. ask jon phillips
16:47 < mray> or ping him via identi.ca
16:47 < mray> i can ask him too
16:48 < genete> usually, posts in create mailing list are writen in a first person style and usually ask for some feed back. It doesn't happen to synfig.org news.
16:49 < mray> i'm not talking about the mailinglist
16:49 < mray> just the rss aggregator http://create.freedesktop.org/
16:50 < mray> jon once asked me for permission to aggregate freegital.de to create
16:50 < genete> I have my own blog automatically redirected to http://www.graphicsplanet.org
16:52 < genete> yes it is a good idea what you mean
16:52 < genete> I'll contact to the create.freedescktop manager to allow add our feed
16:52 < mray> oh i didn't know that one :)
16:52 < prokoudine> genete: that would be jon philips
16:52 < genete> thanks prokudine :)
16:53 < prokoudine> mray: regrettably not many people know graphics planet
16:53 < mray> why is that? i think there should be ONE news source for all stuff
16:54 < mray> like your site, but aggregated
16:55 < mray> i guess libregraphicsworld.org is quite an amount of work
16:56 < genete> see ya later
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17:08 < mray> prokoudine: graphics planet looks interesting - are you affiliated with it, too?
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17:22 < prokoudine> mray: yes
17:22 < prokoudine> mray: 1/3 fo it was added by me
17:23 < prokoudine> of
17:23 < prokoudine> mray: and yes, lgw is alot of work
17:23 < prokoudine> mray: doesn't pay off yet, though :)
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18:20 < rore> btw, is lgw looking more for tutorial, or reviews, interviews? (just wondering)
18:22 < rore> (hm, the previous sentence was supposed to be addressed to prokoudine , but as always I forgot to add the name)
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22:27  * pi7xelgeek_ubu quotes 13:08 < genete> I propose Pixelgeek for admin backup
22:27 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> I can do that.  
22:28 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> I can probably provide limited guidance on high level coding stuff as well - why things are the way they are, etc...  The good thing about longevity is that stuff starts to rub off on you... 
22:32 -!- pi7xelgeek_ubu changed the topic of #synfig to: March/April Challenge http://synfig.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1071 | http://synfig.org/wiki/FAQ | 0.62.0 Released!! http://synfig.org/en/news/releases/50-release-06200 |  News: http://synfig.org/en/news | Ask your question and wait - we will answer eventually...
22:54 -!- genete [~carlos@95.39.171.91] has joined #synfig
22:54 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> hola!
22:54 < genete> hey!
22:54 < genete> have you got an gmail acocunt?
22:55 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> me?  Yes, of course.  You've emailed me there.
22:55 < genete> ah yes! :-[
22:55 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> Ah - do you need one for the GSOC submission?  
22:55 < genete> so please apply to GSoC and create a LinkID
22:56 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> URL?
22:56 < genete> you have to enter to http://socghop.appspot.com/
22:56 < genete> and in the left menu 
22:56 < genete> click on User (self) for registration
22:57 < genete> then it would ask for a LinkID and a username
22:57 < genete> LinkID should be something like your nickname
22:57 < genete> my LinkID is genete
22:58 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> Hmm... I just logged in as me.  
22:58 < genete> once you have signed just tell us your LinkID and zelgadis or me would take note
22:58 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> Don't see any LinkID references
22:58 < genete> yes you have to log in with gmail account
22:58 < genete> edit your profile
22:59 < prokoudine_> genete, applying to gsoc, eh? :)
22:59 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> Done - 
23:00 < genete> the instructions says that mentors or admins would ask for the role to the admin of the mentor organization that will be zelgadis or me (the one who submit the form)
23:00 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> pixelgeek
23:00 < genete> prokoudine_: yeah
23:00 < prokoudine_> any students willing to work so far?
23:00 < genete> pi7xelgeek_ubu: ok thanks!
23:01 < genete> prokoudine_: we already have an student that is willing to code a opengl renderer for synfig
23:01 < genete> as continuation of uiomae work
23:01 < genete> I met him on the last workshop for Synfig I did in my town
23:02 < genete> (past september)
23:02 < genete> btw, I repeat another workshop on 18th this month
23:02 < prokoudine_> wow
23:02 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> BTw, if anyone wants the story of my life - Works really busy, my Win7 RC expired and I haven't had a chance to update to a full install, freenode webchat isn't working on my work PC...  
23:02 < prokoudine_> when and where will it be?
23:03 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> That's why I've been kind of quiet.
23:03 < genete> prokoudine_: it will be in Cádiz (southern city of Spain) where I live. 
23:03 < prokoudine_> where exactly`/
23:03 < prokoudine_>  ?
23:03 < prokoudine_> and when exactly?
23:05 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> but at least I've got my taxes done for another year.  
23:05 < genete> prokoudine_: http://maps.google.es/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=es&geocode=&q=C%2F+Doctor+G%C3%B3mez+ulla,+C%C3%A1diz&sll=36.533612,-6.305214&sspn=0.001485,0.002835&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Calle+del+Doctor+G%C3%B3mez+Ulla,+C%C3%A1diz,+Andaluc%C3%ADa&t=h&z=16
23:05 < genete> and the date: 
23:06 < genete> http://osl.uca.es/josluca/programa
23:06 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> genete - do you need anything else before I have to run off and pick up my son from school?  
23:06 < genete> on 18th
23:06 < prokoudine_> thanks!
23:07 < genete> pi7xelgeek_ubu: nothing more, thanks! And good luck with all W7 stuff, taxes and miscellaneous ordinary life ;)
23:08 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> I'm still reading the logs & forum, but maybe not quite as often as normal.  Sorry for any delay.
23:08 < genete> pi7xelgeek_ubu: can I ask you to be code mentor backup?
23:08 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> Sure.  
23:08 < genete> okay
23:08 < pi7xelgeek_ubu> Backup being the operative word :)
23:09 < genete> please try to read mailing lists until friday
23:09  * pi7xelgeek_ubu nods
23:09 < genete> I'll try to post all important notes on synfig-devel
23:24 -!- prokoudine_ [~avp@wn1nat30.beelinegprs.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
23:52 -!- LinuxMafia [~awatt@CPE00222d6c3ea8-CM00222d6c3ea5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
--- Log closed Wed Mar 10 00:00:13 2010